Ebonics: a bad idea becomes a horrible reality

[QuickSilver]

@jimpatro

Wed-nes-day is harder to say and Wens-day is a prime example of lazy speech and I include myself among the guilty. And it didn’t kill me to say that.

Why can’t the “d” be silent? Like the “K” in knife or the “b” in doubt.

[jimpatro]

Yes, you’re right Merc and actually I should have used John Mace’s example of Wends-day. Tried those combat boots yet?

[QuickSilver]

@liberty3701

What are you basing this argument on?

The same principle or assumption as you mention:

@liberty3701

…not wanting to sound “white” or “uppity” or untrue to their roots, and I think those are all totally legitimate fears…

@liberty3701

I think it’s way more complex than what you’re putting forth.

I don’t know… “cultural reluctance” in context of black history in America seems plenty complex. You mean it’s worse than that?

@liberty3701

What I’m trying to say but failing is that there is a combination of factors going on, from simple incomprehension (not that AAE speakers are stupid, just that when the codes are so similar, misunderstanding occur regularly) to a need to fit in with peers.

So an Chinese or Russian immigrant can come to America and acquire a whole new language, including a new alphabet and intergrate themselves fairly well with SAE but your claim is that the devil’s in the fact that AAE is so similar to ASE?
:dubious:

Growing up, I learned Russian and Ukrainian. I can say with some confidence that they are remarkably similar in dialect as ASE is to AAE. And yet, Ukrainians are quite proficient in both.

[FisherQueen]

1. Dialects are not wrong. They’re just something that exists, when you have language. I’m lucky enough to speak the dialect that is used by people with money and power, so we can say that other peoples’ dialects are wrong. Our saying it doesn’t make us right, it just means that, right now, we have the power to enforce our point of view. A hundred years from now, who knows? some other dialect might gain enough power to replace mine.

2. If you are communicating a clear meaning, you are not speaking ‘wrong,’ just differently. The only speech that is ‘wrong’ is speech that isn’t communicating effectively. Therefore,
   a. “I am going to the bar for a beer” = right
   b. “I be goin’ to the bookstore to git me some Ulysses” =right
   c. “I am fish toenails cabbage” =wrong

3. Despite this, there are strong advantages to the ability to speak the dialect that the people with the money and power speak, because it increases one’s chances of getting some of that money and power for yourself. If you have grown up with a different dialect as your first language, this will not come naturally, but is something you will have to learn with hard work. It’s a good idea to teach the dominant dialect in school, if you want your students to have the best chance at getting good jobs.

4. It’s a good idea to find the most effective ways to teach the dominant dialect. Telling a child “The way your mother talks means she’s lazy and stupid. Just talk like me.” is not the most effective method. Neither is correcting the child whenever she speaks, which is more likely to teach the child to stop speaking than to teach her to talk like you. In life’s journey, insulting someone else’s mama almost never leads to good results.

5. Learning to add a dialect to your ways of speaking doesn’t mean you have to give up your first dialect. If I move to France, I will learn French, but I will still speak English to my mother. If black Americans seize control of the money and the power, I will learn Black English, but I will still speak midwestern English to my mother. A black student who learns to use standard English at school and work will still, very likely, speak Black English to her mother. This is not a problem.

6. People who have different experiences with language might think differently about language than you do. That doesn’t necessarily make them wrong.

7. Standard English is very natural for me, because I grew up hearing it… When I talk in the way that feels natural for me, I am not being lazy. To call people ‘lazy’ for speaking the dialect they grew up hearing is insulting. Since there is a long-standing stereotype that all black people are naturally lazy, to call Black English ‘lazy speech’ is very likely to be perceived as racist as well as insulting. I know that I perceive it that way.

[liberty3701]

@QuickSilver

So an Chinese or Russian immigrant can come to America and acquire a whole new language, including a new alphabet and intergrate themselves fairly well with SAE but your claim is that the devil’s in the fact that AAE is so similar to ASE?

That is what I’m saying. People misunderstand AAE all the time because it sounds like standard English. “I be walking to school” does not mean “I walk to school,” it means “I habitually walk to school.”

Also, those immigrants may want to be like white Americans, while AAE speakers may not.

Growing up, I learned Russian and Ukrainian. I can say with some confidence that they are remarkably similar in dialect as ASE is to AAE. And yet, Ukrainians are quite proficient in both.

Cite? Do you know of a study that compared Ukrainian to Russian, and then that difference to the difference between AAE and standard English? I have never studied either language, so you may very well be right, but I highly doubt it.

[QuickSilver]

@jimpatro

Yes, you’re right Merc and actually I should have used John Mace’s example of Wends-day. Tried those combat boots yet?

Sorry… did you mean me? Mercury, as in QS?

If so, you’ve lost me with the combat boots ref…

[magellan01]

@acsenray

One characterisation is wrong and the other is right.

Consonants are sounds, not letters. Moving from “ing” to “in,” you are dropping a letter if you’re writing it. Speaking and writing are two different things. In pronouncing “ing” either way, you have the same number of consonants.

Nice. Thanks.

Wrong in what context? By what standard?

And we are all interested in ensuring that the students learn standard English, the appropriate speech for a job interview. What we do not see as helpful is tossing around the word “wrong,” which gives us no benefit, and, may, indeed act as an impediment to teaching the appropriate speech for a job interview.

We’ve turned into a bunch of pansies…Fine, “No, Johnny, that is incorrect.” Feel free to drop the “no”, as well. After all such a negation of Johnny’s being is unneccessary.

IMO this is all in your head. The point is to teach students the importance of learning standard English. The way to do that is to first demonstrate that there are different modes of speech and situations in which one or another mode is appropriate and then pointing out the differences and teaching the rules of standard English. By throwing around the word “wrong” you introduce a spanner into the works.

I don’t think so. We all heard, “Johhny you got question #12 wrong. The correct answer is____.” The result? Learning. Why the need to tip-toe around facts of the universe? I covered this in a post or two earlier, as well.

You don’t want to but you are being forced to? People, especially those belonging to identity groups, such as ethnic minorities or juvenile cliques, form attachments to their modes of speech. If you don’t want to denigrate them, then just refrain from telling them that their speech is incorrect. This kind of labelling is superfluous.

I don’t think I am. I don’t think being wrong is anything to be ashamed of, particularly when your in SCHOOL. The reason you’re there is because you don’t know everything! And now you can’t even say their speech is incorrect?!!

That’s it–this is utterly asinine. I thought there was some thinking being applied here, but I was wrong. It’s just the same feel-good PC lefty nonsense that got us to where we are today. Congratulations.

At some point I’m going to compile the “everything-is-equally-wonderful” quotes from this thread and put them into a time capsule. Maybe a thousand years from now some archeologist looking in to the demise of the United States will find it and learn from our mistakes.

[liberty3701]

I hope I’m not coming across as saying no one speaks both AAE and standard English, because I don’t mean that. Just wanted to make that clear. Thanks.

[jimpatro]

Sorry… did you mean me? Mercury, as in QS?

If so, you’ve lost me with the combat boots ref…

Yep, sorry that was in reference to a men’s fashion thread a bit back.
You were mostly in agreement with me but the boots you couldn’t buy into.
Try yoox.com

[QuickSilver]

@liberty3701

That is what I’m saying. People misunderstand AAE all the time because it sounds like standard English. “I be walking to school” does not mean “I walk to school,” it means “I habitually walk to school.”

Well yeah. I’m sure I do. But that’s because there is no common media outlet that broadcasts in AAE. Not even BET I’ll wager. But we’re not talking ASE speakers not understanding AAE speakers. I think we’re talking about AAE speakers effectively communicating in ASE. I’m still arguing that mainstream society makes AAE -> ASE far easier than the other way around.

@liberty3701

Cite? Do you know of a study that compared Ukrainian to Russian, and then that difference to the difference between AAE and standard English? I have never studied either language, so you may very well be right, but I highly doubt it.

I do not. I don’t know if that kind of study would even be of interest or particular use to anyone. 'Cept maybe you egghead linguist types!

@liberty3701

Also, those immigrants may want to be like white Americans, while AAE speakers may not.

My turn… Cite?!

[liberty3701]

My turn… Cite?!

Give me a couple days, and I’ll be happy to…

[liberty3701]

Oooh, forgot:

@QuickSilver

I’m still arguing that mainstream society makes AAE -> ASE far easier than the other way around.

We don’t learn language from media. Maybe some catch phrases, but mostly we learn language from our peers. You have to interact with someone to learn their language (in most cases … there are always exception to rules).

[Anne_Neville]

@magellan01

“better” in that particular situation.

Sure, as long as one realizes that “better in one particular situation” isn’t the same thing as “better in general” or “better in all situations”.

The way some people in this thread are talking, it sounds like they think it would be a good thing if African-American students gave up AAVE entirely because it’s “wrong” and “lazy”, and spoke in SAE at all times. I’m saying that we should tell students that AAVE is inappropriate for certain situations, but that doesn’t mean it’s inappropriate for all situations, or somehow inferior to SAE or other dialects.

[QuickSilver]

@jimpatro

Yep, sorry that was in reference to a men’s fashion thread a bit back.
You were mostly in agreement with me but the boots you couldn’t buy into.
Try yoox.com

Still not feelin’ ya on the combat boots, homes! 'Cept maybe with a kilt.

Nice site. Thanks.

[monstro]

I don’t know we’re stuck on this “lazy” speech thing. We admire efficiency in most endeavors. Why not language?

[QuickSilver]

@liberty3701

We don’t learn language from media. Maybe some catch phrases, but mostly we learn language from our peers. You have to interact with someone to learn their language (in most cases … there are always exception to rules).

I didn’t mean exclusively from media.

But you’ll agree that media is a good reflection of society, yes?

I mean, isn’t that how hip hop culture has entered the burbs? It’s not like white middle/upper class kids are hanging in the inner cities with the homies.

[yBeayf]

I don’t think I am. I don’t think being wrong is anything to be ashamed of, particularly when your in SCHOOL. The reason you’re there is because you don’t know everything! And now you can’t even say their speech is incorrect?!!

By what standard are you determining their speech is wrong? According to their peer group? The rules of SAE? Panini’s treatise on the grammar of Sanskrit?

Who or what, in your view, determines what is “correct” English and what is incorrect?

[jimpatro]

Still not feelin’ ya on the combat boots, homes! 'Cept maybe with a kilt.

Ha ha! I know, I know. But I thought you’d get into it.

[liberty3701]

@QuickSilver

I didn’t mean exclusively from media.

I know you didn’t; I cheated a bit; please forgive me.

But you’ll agree that media is a good reflection of society, yes?

Oh, god, I hope not. But, seriously, I think it reflects some aspects of society, but I’m not sure I quite understand what this has to do with the topic at hand. Remember, I’m a little slow.

I mean, isn’t that how hip hop culture has entered the burbs? It’s not like white middle/upper class kids are hanging in the inner cities with the homies.

True, very true. You’ll also note that most white kids get a lot of the slang and grammar wrong, or will emphasize certain very salient aspects of the dialect while ignoring others. I do, indeed, have a citation on this, though I would have to dig it up from the nether regions of my file cabinet…

[magellan01]

@liberty3701

Just because other people have used the term lazy speech doesn’t make it right.

But its a term that the experts must find meaningful and helpful, as it is in virtually every article or website on the subject I’ve seen.

For the love of God, no one is teaching AAE to kids!!

That’s not what I said. I said “So the question is, even if we assume it is a dialect, is teaching in that dialect the best way to have children acquire the tools they’ll need to take full advantage of society.” And that was based on the quote from the article in th OP, the meaning of which there is still confusion about.

And it is a dialect! Any linguist that says otherwise is a crackpot.

Thanks for clearing that up. Can you tell me, isn’t one a subset of the other? Isn’t it common to speak of one language having many dialects?

You’re right. The way things stand now, AAE ain’t gonna do them a lick of good when it comes time to get a job. That’s why no one is advocating teaching them AAE. They are advocating using it as a tool for them to better learn standard English. Because, face it, honey, tough love isn’t working.

It is in some of the Charter Schools.

Of course, in my paradise, a kid could get a good job speaking AAE because we all would have been schooled from an early age that we all speak dialects, and all dialects are equally valid and logical and rigorous.

Wouldn’t this just lead to a society of Babel, where it would be near impossible for a kid to learn anything. You could say that all these dialects would amalgamate into one rich language. But isn’t that what SE is, with many words and expressions taken from many other languages. So, wouldn’t we eventaully be exactly right back to where we are. Trying to get the kids to learn the “accepted” language of their time, the one that will give them the best opportunities in the verbal society in which they live?