Ebonics: a bad idea becomes a horrible reality

I wonder if what is being called lazy here is a misidentification of what that form of speech you’ve used as an example really is? I’d suggest that rather than being lazy, it’s a form of code-switching which recognises a specific environment, that is, being with an group of people where the question of going to to the beach is likely to arise, i.e. in an informal, friendly situation.

In that kind of circumstance, a crisply articulated, “No thank you, I do not wish to go to the beach”, would possibly be the inappropriate mode, and likely to get a reply like, “yeah, what’s wrong with you.”? So I’d argue that in that circumstance it’s not about laziness, it’s about using a mode of speech appropriate to the moment, code-switching.

Again, your example from The Sopranos was interesting. Where I used to live was a working class, inner-city industrial suburb, with a large population of Greek and Italian migrants, many of whom had arrived post-World War II. That kind of accent was very typical of my students, and sufficiently common that it was recognised as a “Westie” or “Bogan” accent in other parts of the city.

There was a distinct class bias against the accent, and people from those suburbs who moved “up” tended to lose it, because it was seen, with no justification, as an indication of lower intelligence, presumably because of its working-class origins.

Certainly the accent wasn’t about laziness, that was how many people in lived in the area spoke, my students had the accent because that’s how their friends and parents spoke. For some of them, the issue become a difficult one if they chose to embrace a more “standard” accent because they were sometimes seen as “selling out”, turning their backs on their working class/immigrant origins and aspiring to be middle-class, or, in Bogan, “up themselves”.

For many people who live in those suburbs, their identification with that background is very strong, and the way they speak is a means of identification with their families and peers. Given the amount of racism “wogs” copped from Anglo-Australians, not to mention the amount of prejudice against the Western suburbs, I don’t see that it’s at all surprising that even in adulthood many would choose to keep the accent, as an act of defiance and identification.
For a teenager, mumbling, shuffling and slouching are probably not really about laziness, except in so far as adults choose to characterise them in that way. Kids have lots of energy, they don’t need to conserve it. It’s about being a teenager, identifying with their peers, using movement and voice to be part of the group. It’s a kind of defiance, “I am a kid, and this is how kids behave”.

If an adult says to a teenager, “sit up straight, don’t be lazy”, unless they’re posture maniacs, they’re really saying, “be more like an adult, behave in the way I think is consistent with my image of adult behaviour, be more like me”. “Lazy” is really just a code, when what is really going on is behaviour modification and control.

The thing is, as humans we’re hardwired for language, it’s who and what we are, so the ways in which we use language are very complex, so embedded in our social and cultural context that often we don’t even realise what is going on. Although we talk a lot, quite a bit of what we are saying isn’t about the meanings of the words and sentences we’re using, but metacommunication, discourses which build and define power, relationships and culture…

If you’re interested in this stuff, a search for “speech codes”, semiotics and “communication theory” will find lots of references.

I will thank you not to make up stuff and say that’s what I said.

I will also thank you to heed the warning placed earlier in this thread by a moderator.

No. Laziness is a character flaw.

I would describe it as being part of a particular dialect and, more specifically, your particular idiolect and the appropriate form of speech given the sociolinguistic environment in which you uttered that particular expression. I would also say that the expression follows a phonological rule particular to your dialect.

Here’s a quick lesson in logic for you: Just because all A are B does not mean that all B are A.

In the case of English, SAE is not the mother language for all of the dialects of English spoken in the US. Also, RP is not the mother language for all of the dialects of English spoken in the UK.

Tom (of tomndebb), ISTM, has already clarified those points.

Finally, a note on opinons: If you want an opinion to be highly regarded, said opinion should have some kind of factual, not merely emotional, support.

Almost. I’m describing possible motivations and causes for laziness you cannot conceive – or very possibly concede. Not being socialized can result in lazy behavior. Inadequate nutrition or lack of sleep can result in lazy (and cranky) behavior. Psychological discomfort (in my example, not quite tramua) can result in lazy behavior.

My point still stands: lazy is not exclusively a moral failing, or an epithet, or a pejorative. Divorced from it’s negative connotations, ‘lazy’ just means you’re not working very hard at something. Sometimes defiant behavior has you expending more energy being refusing to work than if you just buckled down and applied yourself. This is very different from working very hard but still quite not succeeding; that’s a matter of aptitude, mastery and accuracy rather than lack of effort. Anyway, there’s lots of possible reasons why you’re lazy. It’s frankly a useful descriptor.

Ah. well here’s my answer to your “problem” – I never said dialect was lazy. I’ve said “diction in some dialects is lazy”, I’ve said slurring words is lazy, I’ve said not being willing to learn to code-switch is lazy. I certainly never said code-switching needed to be exceuted perfectly – I bemoan the fact it’s often never attempted, very often because students don’t see its value, can’t be bothered, don’t want to seem nerdy, parents dislike them talking “better” than they do. All of which leads to not working very hard at school, all of which I describe as lazy behavior. It’s easy to conform, much harder to learn these skills despite not having support.

Again, tomndebb: This is 2005. Most working class kids come from public school districts that use some sort of SAE phonics training to teach them to read, and come from from families that place a premium on owning the latest entertainment and communication devices. They have cell phones, they own large screen TVs with cable/satellite hookups and racks of DVDs from Hollywood hit movies, all sorts of music, all sorts of games – they have been exposed to code-switching, I promise you. This population of students of students that has never been exposed to code-switching you’re championing as hapless victims of my misguided pedagogy doesn’t exist anymore. They have, they just don’t practice it.

I didn’t. I was trying to clarify your position as I understood it, similar to what you were probably doing here:

“Ah, I get it now, magellan. You’re not trying to prove anything; you’re merely tossing out charges–inaccurate assertions, actually–and expecting the rest of us to accept them willy nilly.”

If my attempt at clarification was flawed, please show me where.

Taken in its entirety that statement seems to say that while a person may very well have a charecter flaw (laziness), that that flaw simply cannot ever be detected through his speech. Is that what you’re saying? If not please elaborate.

I simply disagree with the first part of your statement. I don’t see how it can be said that this trait “laziness” exists as part of the human condition, yet this one huuman action 9speech) is immune from it.

Askia seems to agree with the second part of that statement.(Pease correct me if that is not right, Askia.) I would, too, if it were chronic. But as I explained to tomndebb, I think that people can be unaware of “instances” of laziness. Though I guess that not paying attention and monitoring oneself could be considered a form of laziness.

I think that all plays a role, maybe a major role. But whatever the baseline of my dialect is, I am capable of poor annunciation and slurring of speech, some of which might be due to laziness.

Here’s a quick lesson in logic for you: Just because all A are B does not mean that all B are A.

Physician, heal thyself. That was exactly my point. The one you seemed to not be getting in your post #532:

“Why don’t you get that a prestige dialect isn’t necessarily the mother language? It’s just what its name implies: that dialect which has been elevated to the dominant status.”

Which caused me to reply:

"I agree that a prestige dialect isn’t necessarily the mother language. But it very well may be. Wouldn’t you agree?

So, where is the logic flaw that sparked your little “lesson”?

This maybe “logical” and all, but it’s not correct. If you want me to dig up some articles on historical linguistics that show this to be inherently false, I will. Heck, if you can wait till October, I’ll be going to a conference on the history of the English language, and I can get some people who study this very question to respond to this.

I really don’t think Monty is being intentionally mean-spirited or argumentative; all he’s doing is trying to explain some inconsistencies in your thinking and trying to use some of his linguistics background to dispell some common linguistic myths. I don’t want to come off as bossy or taking sides or anything, but I think you need to not take his posts as insults.

Hey liberty3701, “_____________________________!”

I guess if tomndebb can read minds, I’m gone for good.

Clearly, we have different concepts of the meaning of the word lazy. We’ll just have to muddle through any further discussion by dancing around it.

I would agree–and have explicitly noted the possibility, twice–that a kid who has the experience and education may choose to avoid code-switching out of laziness. It is not my perception that those kids are the ones we have been discussing throughout this thread.

Nah. This thread could use some humor.

:eek: my virgin eyes!

You seem to define ‘experience’ and ‘education’ narrower than I do, just as we don’t see eye-to-eye on why I don’t believe laziness must always be only a moral failing. I happen to think there’s lots of reasons you can be lazy, just as I think there are lots of secondary SAE sources outside of school with educational merit for AAVE speakers who wish to learn to code-switch – I mentioned movies, TV, etc. as one of the easier ways to internalize SAE rules. Direct experience and formal education are assets, certainly – just not prerequisites or the only valid available sources.

magellan01. You put it that way, I definitely don’t see how a human tendency towards laziness cannot betray itself in human speech. People may not like to hear that, but – there ya go.

I’m not sure what you’re referring to here. I think the difference between our respective takes on “lazy” is that I hold that it

be unintentional, whereas you do not. Haven’t you ever slouched and not been aware that you were doing it?

Have I characterized oyur position correctly?

I know lots of suburban kids who listen to hip-hop and urban radio, almost exclusively, watch any hip-hop related movie that is released, and own hundreds of CDs with hip-hop, rap, gansta, and related forms. Not one of those kids I know could actually speak AAVE or anything more than a slang-filled imitation of it. They have learned to comprehend its spoken form, but without the interactive learning that comes from having one’s own speech heard and corrected, there is no way that a person learns to speak (or internalioze rules), simply by hearing others speak.

Hearing SAE in the media may give inner city kids an advantage over some rural kid who never hears SAE in any venue, but it will do nothing to internalize the rules.

Oops.

I made something a quote when I menat to italicize it. Sorry. I don’t if this is something tomndebb can/should fix. I meant to say:

I’m not sure what you’re referring to here. I think the difference between our respective takes on “lazy” is that I hold that it can be unintentional, whereas you do not. Haven’t you ever slouched and not been aware that you were doing it?

Have I characterized your position correctly?

No, that is not what I was doing. There, I clearly made a comment relating my observation of your posts in this particular thread.

That has already been shown to you.

It’s quite baffling how you could draw that conclusion from what I posted in this thread. Nowhere did I say, nor even imply, that a person’s laziness cannot be evident in that person’s speech. What you seem to be missing here is the simple concept that one person’s speech pattern does not a dialect make.

I have already directed your attention to the moderator’s warning in this thread.

It’s still present in your seeming assertion that SAE is the mother language of all the dialects of English spoken. It’s not. That has been shown to you, time and time again, and you are now engaging in what I prefer to call “moving target debate.” Your first assertion has been shown to be inaccurate and you now pull “but what about this sense of the phrase” as a kind of support. That’s not debate, it’s a trick. We were not discussing the general concept of mother languages giving birth to subsequent dialects; we were discussing the particular case of SAE.

As a reminder for you, just because the prestige dialect of some languages is the predecessor language for its dialects does not mean that for English, the prestige dialects (please note the plural there–it’s very important) are the mother tongue (please note the singular there–it’s very important) for the other dialects of English extant.

Your assertions seem to be:
[ul][li]SAE is the mother tongue of all English dialects.[/li][li]Since some people are lazy in speech (which assertion I reject, btw), an entire dialect is lazy.[/li][li]The prestige dialect is somehow better, inherently, than the other dialects of a language.[/li][li]That the non-prestige dialects of English came about from failures of its speakers.[/ul][/li]
You have been shown that none of those assertions has a basis in fact. Most importantly, for English, your assertions about mother tongue fall flat on the simple evidence that there is more than one prestige dialect, each with a different history.

When you return, could you send me e-mail regarding your experiences at the conference? I would dearly love to attend such a conference; however, my job schedule does not permit it. My e-mail address is in my profile.

True. Additionally, I’m not being argumentative at all. At least, IMHO.

That’s exactly it!

Thanks.

BTW, there are quite a few common linguistic myths which, I’ve discovered, remain in the minds of some folks even when presented with evidence to the contrary. An example: I work with one gentleman who continues to maintain that “Asians can’t say the [r] sound.” We are located in Korea. Korean, which language he is making very good progress in learning, has both the [r] and [l] sounds. He is aware that at least one Asian language has the [r] sound yet he continues to believe the linguistic myth.

magellan: I readily concede that you may not be aware that you are doing the “moving target” debating.

Oh, pooh. Babies learn to speak or internalize rules simply the example of hearing others speak. But I agree with you this much: people master language through interaction and correction.

If you wrote… “there is no way that a person learns to master a dialect simply by hearing others speak,” I’d agree. The fact those suburban kids even attempt a “slang-filled imitation” is proof they think they have grasped some nuance of the dialect simply by listening to it.

This is why foreign language tapes are sold. You listen to 'em, you comprehend 'em, you imitate 'em, then you master them later through interaction with native speakers. But even if you never get around to talking to native speakers, you’d have likely internalized some rules regarding pronounciation, inflection, tone, pitch and conjugation.

By the way… how do you know their “slang-filled imitation” isn’t accurate?

They pretty much always get their tenses wrong.

And you are now changing the discussion. I have never claimed that a person could not learn to understand a language or dialect without speaking it; we have been discussing learning to speak–and I have never seen anyone pick up tht ability without interaction, and I have seen a number of linguisitc presentations claim that it is not possible.

I said, “you’d have likely internalized some rules regarding pronounciation, inflection, tone, pitch and conjugation.” Last I checked, those all dealt with speech. How is this changing the subject?

You also claimed that

which is incorrect. Babies only learn to speak in interaction with speakers. They may learn to comprehend speech, (which is why one can tell a toddler things they understand), but they do not learn speech simply by hearing it.