Ed, I think your efforts to improve the Dope have been a failure so far.

Excuse me? In spite of the quite large number of women who have told you point blank that we can manage on our own, thank you very much, we don’t NEED or WANT Daddy Zotti galloping in on his white horse to save us from the oh-so-dreaded “c-word” you still maintain this patronizing, paternalistic attitude masquerading as a favor to us poor little girls who can’t stand up for ourselves. Could you possibly be more condescending?

We don’t WANT your help. We don’t NEED your protection. Attempting to hide behind our skirts to justify your own stupid prejudices is merely adding insult to injury. As a woman I’m offended by the very notion that you think I’m so fucking weak that I need to be protected by you, of all people, from WORDS ON A MESSAGE BOARD. You are not my father, you are not my brother, you are not my husband, you are not my friend. You do not have the right (NO man does) nor the responsibility to jump in unasked to “protect” me from the gasp! naughty words.

The fact that you persist in using us women as an excuse to push your agenda is indicative of your overall heedless, thoughtless, bull headed approach to the adults who keep this community going, who have been making sure you have a goddamned paycheck for ten years. Without us I don’t think your little column would have done much, especially in the age of the internet. WE are the message board, we made it, we feed it, we drive interest in it, it’s ours but we had the misfortune of building our community on land owned by somebody else. I don’t think we’ll make that mistake again. Congratulations there, Ed, you are King of the Clumpy Sandbox–you win. May you enjoy it in good health.

The text below was originally posted here by “Ed Zotti, Administrator, Join Date: Feb 1999posts: 976,” on December 18, 2008. NB the arrogance with which **Ed **dismissed the reaction I felt many Dopers would have to his new Pit rules, and his certain response to that reaction. (It’s in the final sentence of his post, if you want to skip to the end.)

Responding to

Ed wrote (**bolding **mine)

Completely agree.

I’m a relative newcomer to these boards and the Straight Dope in general. I’ve probably been here less time than anyone who has posted in this thread. So please accept my comments with the understanding that I do recognize my noobishness here. But speaking for myself at least, and contrary to a few opinions that I see expressed here, I came to these boards purely as a result of being a fan of the columns. That is what drew me to the SD website. My interest or participation in the message boards is only peripheral to the column. Take away the column and I would probably never visit the message boards again. Take away the boards and I would still read every new column as it was published. I don’t think the members of a “straight dope” message board can rightfully claim they are the driving force behind the “straight dope” web site and brand in general. Sorry, but the brand and Cecil’s columns are the far more valuable commodities here if we’re talking about reaching numbers of people or having commercial value. As I read some of these posts I can’t help but visualize the red stapler guy in the movie Office Space as being the author.

I get the impression that these changes everyone is complaining so bitterly about were really not that harsh. This looks to a newcomer such as myself more like a bunch of disgruntled old-timers who would resent and complain about ANY proposed or actual changes by the management. And for any proposed or actual changes that were attempted it seems the firestorm of complaints and flame wars only served to further encumber the management and hurt their ability to implement those changes smoothly.

All that said I do think it is a bad idea to make a business model around message board subscriptions in the first place. The column and straight dope brand are, or should be, far more valuable than a message board. Find a better way to sell the books, write some new books, make some new products, go to XM radio… I don’t know, but sell the straight dope and fighting ignorance as a business model and run the message board as a free community for fans.

Thank you for apologising, Ed. I have to admit, it was more than I was expecting, and it can’t have been an easy post to write. This isn’t a zero-sum game, though, as you said in an earlier post and a different context: we haven’t “won” because we have an apology from you, nor have you “lost” because you’ve made one: I hope that no-one wants to see you dragged in the dust around the city walls.

It’s not zero-sum because this was not, nor was it ever, a power struggle. Perhaps it took you a long time to see it, but all of the protests were about what we members saw as the best interests of this board as a community, as a culture unique on the internet. We objected so heatedly because we felt your changes ran counter to ten years of tradition here, and then, when we were trying to explain how we felt, we grew frustrated when you didn’t listen .

So nobody’s won here, and nobody’s lost. What happens next, though, is the crucial part. The board has taken a battering, perhaps the greatest it has ever suffered. New boards have begun, full of zeal and excitement, and in a very short time the posters who went there have grown accustomed to having a say in their boards: I’m one of them, and the passion and energy of new growth is a heady feeling.

There are a lot of angry, disgruntled or just plain disaffected posters out there, Ed, they have new boards that they can help to shape, and if you want to fix this board you’re going to have to win them back here as well. You’re going to have to win them back not with words but with actions, because the only way people will return is if you can show that you’re willing to both listen and make changes to heal the damage and prevent it from happening again.

I don’t know if it can be done, but I do know that it won’t be easy. Don’t forget the depths of goodwill that you have for this board, though: indeed, that affection was the catalyst for so many departures, since people many left rather than see a betrayal of this board’s principles, and no amount of money can buy a board that can arouse that depth of feeling. You can tap into that wellspring of affection and loyalty by listening to people, Ed, by working with them and using their suggestions to make the board a plac where people want to post once more. Perhaps I’m an optimist, but I can see the vigour and excitement of the new boards complementing the established traditions of this one.

You’ve have taken the first step in apologising, Edand if you can take another by listening to and working with members to fix it - well, I never quite gave up here, even when it felt like nobody was listening, and I’m sure there are many more like me. I wish you - and us - all the best.

Rob

What he said. What this place has that the ‘other boards’ don’t is the Straight Dope brand. I don’t think it is being made full use of, instead all the emphasis has been on the message board. The board is (or was) great, but it was never going to make money. There are other boards that are far bigger and more active (SomethingAwful, for instance). This board depends on 500-1000 core ‘active posters’.

Anyway, I personally have settled at one of the other boards and become a regular poster there. Most of the people agree there that this latest mess-up is the straw that broke the camel’s back, rather than them just having left because they can’t call each other cs and fers no more. Still, trying to mess with the Pit out of some misguided notion of civility was seriously dumb.
This is what you need to do if you want me personally to start posting at the SDMB instead of the other boards again:

  1. Put the Pit rules back the way they were. That includes Rule 1. If the mods can’t stand the heat of being Pitted once in a while, get different mods. You’ll find no shortage of volunteers.

  2. No more moderating (except maybe in extreme circumstances e.g. legal threats) by Ed Zotti, Lynn Bodoni or Tubadiva. Keep ‘admins’ and ‘moderators’ separate.

  3. Fix the damn Search. This board has something that the 2 new boards don’t - its vast repository of archive discussions and Q&As. Fat lot of good if you can’t find anything.

  4. Get rid of some of the more un-necessary rules. There’s no sane reason why we can’t discuss drugs or file-sharing. A simple disclaimer should surely do it for the ‘medical advice’ and ‘legal advice’ rules as well. Other message boards don’t have these restrictions

  5. I’d like to see the following posters’ posting privileges restored: Sapo, Excalibre, Otto (come on, people), Zenster, SqrlCub/dorkusmalorkusmafia, Collounsbury.

Silence, noob! Grown-ups are talking. Kidding, kidding. Of course your comments are welcome here. I came here pretty much the same way you did. I read the books and was delighted to find the AOL site back in the day. This board has become much more than just a message board about the SD columns and books, to a lot of people this became a kind of internet “home” if that makes sense to you. Now it’s a “broken home” to many of us and it sucks because we remember how great it used to be here. It’s just more personal to us, that’s all.

I certainly appreciate Ed’s apology, as belated as it is.

Phase II is to put things back the way they were, IMHO.

Rather than repeat myself in multiple threads, I’d like to express my concerns by pointing to the relevant parts of [post=10916009]this post of mine[/post] in the thread spun off by **Skip **to discuss the “jerks” comment.

Ed Zotti, thank you for the your post. My critiques are done. It was a long time coming for me, since the debacle of the sound enabled ads. I look forward to positive changes and enhancements and still hope for the best. Thank you for your time. I hope you take something from the many posts in this thread that were largely without insult.

Did you even read the Op? I made it clear it was not about the latest change. It looks like you constructed a fine post and then looked for a home for it.

**My complaints were technical, planning, communication and most importantly community. **

Maybe you meant to post in a different thread or maybe you did not really care. Either way your quoted paragraph shows a strong disconnect to this thread.

Enjoy the column and enjoy the parts of the dope you do like, but try learning to at least read the Op.

Ed says he sorry, but Ed hasn’t changed any of the rules he’s supposed to be sorry about implementing. Apology not accepted.

Good goddamn, Ed–haven’t you learned anything from this mess?

The entire avalanche that started this current problem was caused by a mod making up a rule (“No thread titles that weren’t 100% accurate”–aka “No “misleading” thread titles” ) because she didn’t like what a poster wrote–no other reason. (Note that a half-dozen other examples of “misleading” thread titles were given at the time and no-one was warned for them. Hell the rule has never been written down anywhere except just that once). The poster then called her a cunt*, which was, in both our opinions, a problem and led to the infamous “rule #2

And just now, Skip warned and unwarned someone for breaking another made-up, pulled-out-of-his-ass, didn’t exist before he invented it just now, rule:

Since fucking when?
ETA–I just noticed that he pointed out that this rule exists in MSPIMS–which is news to me–but it has never applied anywhere else on the SDMB and if it does…

this will come as a huge shock to every religious person who’s been in the same GD thread as Der Trihs. It’ll be surprising for liberals who were in theads right after 9/11. It’ll be stunning for LeKatt in pretty much ever thread he’s been in, ditto Shodan, Bricker, Elvis1lives, and on and on and on.

And your reaction to this colossal fuck-up? You close the thread and tell people that they should go outside and get some fresh air? Gee, thanks, mom. :rolleyes:

How about, just once, for the sheer novelty value of it all saying in public, wher the warning occured: “Skip, you do a great job over-all but please, making rules, and worse, inventing retroactive rules isn’t something you’re authorized to do. Tucker I apologize for Skip’s overzealous reaction. Of course no such rule exists or ever did.”

C’mon. Shayna posted about a board with 3 rules. I’ve been on boards with probably 30 or so rules—the thing that both boards have in common is that the rules are consistant.

I like many of Bluecanary’s suggestions on what you could do to help repair the damage here, but rule #0–before ANYTHING else is that you lay down, in stone, the rule that even if a Mod/Admin is worried that they’re being beaten in a debate and feeling butthurt, they can’t make up rules on the fly. I loved what the Dope was, but dammit, it’s starting to seem more and more like posting here is like trying to play chess with a 3 year old who keeps moving pieces randomly.

*I"ll be damned if I use the term c-word.

I have not left yet… But the fun factor is way down, that’s for sure…

It can not be fixed, but it can go on, a bit different, with less old posters but, that’s life.

The one thing that would really make a difference for me would be 100% transparent modding and admin decisions. Let us see them. We don’t have to be able to comment in those places but I for one can live with bad decisions if I understand how they came about and by who.

Won’t happen I know and some could not leave it alone and would post about nothing else, but the “Don’t be a Jerk” would fix that pretty quick.

Finical times are hard. If the bean counters kill this board, just say so and wish up well and shut it down. Just don’t treat us like little children. …

I didn’t notice there were any changes until people started complaining about them. I think what Ed was doing is needed in some form. There’s become a very ugly dynamic to a portion of pit threads that has been growing and growing.

I think we have a portion of people here who are socially inept and cowardly in real life who make up for it by attacking people anonymously and safely on the internet. It gives them power and makes them feel good. Once a good target has been identified, they pile on with the attacks and drama. I think it’s chased away a lot of good people, and really taken away one of the main things that attracted me to this board. It used to be that you weren’t villified for taking a contrary position to popular board thinking. You were only villified if your arguments were bad.

Nowadays, it doesn’t really matter too much what you say, if you’re on the wrong side of an argument your attacked.

I’ve tried with varying success simply to keep my own counsel, and I realize the attacks are manipulative in nature.

Ed, you’re on the wrong side of the argument here, and you’re being bullied and you can’t do the right things without coming under attack. Keep your own counsel. Do what you think is right. If you don’t chase out the rabidity there’s no point to this place.

Having to apologize is never fun so props to you for doing it, Ed.

As to whether it’s too late, that rather depends on what you do, now and in the future. Your apology was a necessary start, not a solution. You and your team have several daunting tasks ahead. BTW, I don’t offer any of this in the spirit that anyone should coat themselves in ashes or crawl across gravel for forgiveness.

Institutionalized flaws allowed this mess to develop and fester. So when a way of doing things causes problems, time after time, stop doing them that way. What are you willing to change, for short term remediation of damage and to prevent more problems over the long haul?

First, your information loop is far too insular and entrenched, Ed They are staff and you need to weigh that perspective accordingly. Of course listen to them, but not just to them. In a business model, it’s pure insanity to not listen to customers. Posters are not the enemy. What measures will you put in place to demonstrate you will listen to customer feedback too?

Second, call a do-over. Undo the mistakes. A poster just got slapped for using “jerks” collectively. Lynn still writes, entirely without irony, of “my” rules. If she can make up rules at will, fine. Then you need to make that official, to posters and those trying to mod a forum with her. And then there are your rules. Posters aren’t outraged at the prospect of not being able to swear. That’s a strawman and always was. Posters are upset and angry as hell because of the double-secret-probation tangle they can’t understand but which can be used against them. So, some recent actions were mistakes. The best demonstration of good faith, not to mention common sense, is to stop doing it.

Third, I get–wow, do I get–your point that staff should not have to swallow abuse just for doing their jobs. The “Pit him/her in a separate thread” was a solid, sensible solution. Modding and admining are public-contact jobs. Anybody who can’t take the heat shouldn’t be in the position, for their own sake and the longterm health of the board. Period.

This unholy brouhaha blew up because two of your staff made very questionable decisions in The Pit. The long-established nature and uses of The Pit weren’t a problem until Lynn and Colibri made missteps there, bam bam, right after the other. It was a personnel issue from start to finish. It should have been handled as one. No public humiliation needed or appropriate. Instead, they hard-lined, sparking more incredulous anger, then you took an even harder line in their defense. You bowdlerized The Pit and set staff even farther apart and above. Staff aren’t always right. They’re always volunteers and deserve your gratitude and respect for willingness to tackle the job. But building higher and higher walls to protect them, even from consequences of their decisions, just creates more problems. Demonstrably.

You owe dispassionate, objective consideration to posters as well as staff.

So what do you intend to do to handle personnel problems more effectively in the future? I’m not asking to be pissy or punitive. But all of you need to find a way out of your bunkers. It’s hot, claustrophobic and uncomfortable as hell in there. It’s a big factor in why I left, both modding and even posting much. It sure isn’t conducive to calm, reasoned thinking either. I hope posters are still inclined to give you enough space and grace to do that. I think they might. But you have to take that first step, Ed.

I used to think so, too. Not anymore. This place is starting to really suck, and it horrifies me that the people making it suck can’t even understand why. “We just wanted it to be more civil!” Naughty words don’t hurt the board anywhere near as much as ham-fisted moderation and vague, inconsistent rules enforced by ham-fisted moderators.

I’m glad you figured this out, hopefully in time to recover the 700-800 or so people who have jumped ship to other splinter boards.

However, after the “jerks” warning fiasco and the way you closed down the “Jerks is warnable now” thread, I’m about to be one of them, too.

Yup. But as far as I can tell, the people I most want to exchange views with, i.e. my community, aren’t going to be here anymore. Most of those people have left, or in the very least are posting more elsewhere.

Sorry, missed the edit window. I thought it worth mentioning that my biggest gripe about the “Jerks is warnable” thread being closed is that Skip Magic had just moved some posts from here to there to avoid a “hijack.”

What to say?
Kudos to Ed for manning up and apologizing. It’s never easy. FWIW, I have never liked the word cunt and find it incredibly offensive. That said, I also don’t feel I need protection against the sad, sad people who use it as a weapon. Using it says more about them than it ever will about me. Just food for thought.
I have probably not contributed much at all to the Dope, but I sure have enjoyed my ride. I’d like to think that things will continue on, but so many of my favorites are fragmented now; what used to be a fun diversion is now work (which board are they on again? where was that thread again? where did I post that reply and was it answered? etc), and to be frank, none of the boards exhibits the panache of the old SDMB.

I have no idea what to do. I’ll have to figure it out for myself. I suppose there was no point to this post, really, but to say thank you for the apology and that I hope thing look up in future, for all parties concerned.

If Ed feels genuinely contrite about the way things have gone, then an apology is perfectly appropriate and I admire him for making it.

Personally, I think he had nothing to apologize for and he should have stuck to politely telling the Whining Dozens that they were getting pissy for no good reason.

(my bold)

I think I speak for many Dopers when I say that you couldn’t be more wrong. You are one of *the *Dopers.