Education is a farce.

I’m not sure I agree with the idea that a liberal arts education doesn’t give you any practical job skills, which seems to be taken as a given on this thread. You don’t go to college and just major in “liberal arts;” you pick a major, and you DO get a specific skill set that’s applicable to a certain group of jobs.

Someone above asked for what job an English major would apply at a company like HP or GE, what an English major could offer one of those companies. The answer is, probably not much, which is why, as someone graduating with a BA in English, I didn’t apply to one of those companies. Aside from the ephemeral “critical thinking skills” and trivia knowledge being discussed throughout this thread, I took three quanifiable skills away from my English education:

1 - the ability to write well, very quickly, under constant deadline pressure

2 - the ability to read quickly for comprehension, develop a coherent analysis of what I had read, and express that analysis clearly

3 - the ability to edit the writing of others, accurately and efficiently

Upon graduation, I applied for a position as a writer and editor at a publishing company. They looked at only people with English or Journalism degrees for this position. I was hired, and two promotions and less than two years later, I have a pretty darn good job for a person of my age and background.

I chose my major based on my future goals (to work in a field that included writing), and chose the companies I would target post-graduation based on the skills I had aquired. Complaining that a liberal arts degree doesn’t prepare you for every job in the world is a little ridiculous; it’s not meant to. If you learn a trade - say, automotive repair - and then expect to be hired in an entirely different area - say, professional chef - of COURSE you’re going to be disappointed.

Yes, or maybe you could wish you knew now what you might know later. You aren’t a child at 23, but you aren’t finished developing and learning. Neither am I, at 44.

For what it’s worth, I went to college a bit late, which I think was good for me. I was 34 when I got out and settled on the career I have had for the past ten years. Before college, I worked as a carpenter, firefighter, truck driver, janitor, merchant sailor, dishwasher, factory worker, and more. Maybe I’m a wimp, but I’m grateful to be off the assembly line, in an indoor job with no heavy lifting. Never had the slightest interest in or aptitude for any of those things that bring in big salaries–engineering is too technical, law is too competitive, medicine requires far more committment than I’m willing to make. Business puts me straight to sleep. Sorry for the autobiography, just trying to point out why liberal arts was a good choice for me. It might still be for you, but there are others available. It isn’t too late.

Which drops you in the club with 99% of the rest of us. Even if you had majored in something more “practical,” there is no reason to believe that your career goals would be any less fluid.

As I have mentioned before, I am also 23. I have had the same career goal since, oh, about 9th grade. I was going to be a professor of medieval history on the university level. With the exception of indulging other personal interests, almost everything I did was focused towars this one luminous goal. I double majored in a school with the most rigorous core curriculum in the country[sup]1[/sup], learned four new languages, wrote a senior honors thesis, made tons of connections, etc. Everything was going perfectly.

Until for various reasons all of my plans imploded at the end of my first semester of my senior year. Now I’m a paralegal. All of my career plans utterly went to shit. All the planning, the hard work, the expectations. All of my friends and colleagues expected me to go on to grad school immediately, surely publish some articles, and nab one of the choice positions after I got my degree.

Now I push paper for a law firm.

Acco, don’t beat yourself up. Enjoy this period of uncertainty. Switch jobs after a year. Do something completely different. Hell, if you can save up enough money, quit your job and travel for a month or so. You have time before you have to start worrying about your career. As other posters have mentioned, the days of starting your career at 22, working for the same company for 30 years, and retiring with a huge pension are gone. Don’t waste your vigor knuckling your forehead about your career yet.

Give yourself three years or so, at least.

[sup]1 Yes, it’s tougher than the U. of Chicago core, no matter what UoC people might tell you. ;)[/sup]

I think there is a lot of bias in hiring and Human Resource departments that place an unnecessary emphasis on a college degree. Someone with a college degree is usually perceived as being better qualified for the job than someone without a degree. Although I’ve never cornered a HR dweeb into a confession, there is a general impression that many will simply discount an otherwise perfectly acceptable candidate without a degree in favor of one with a degree.

For a number of irrelevant reasons, I was never able to finish a degree program in English Language and Literature back in the early and mid 80’s, even though I was only one or two classes short. A few years ago I enrolled in another degree program at a diploma mill college called Strayer. I was studying Network Engineering; the classes were too easy and only superficially covered the subjects; the professors often had a shaky (or incomprehensible) command of the English language; in the VB class the mathematics professor taught from the textbook, not really knowing the subject of the class himself, and was found of giving examples by saying “This is how it would be done in Q-Basic.” To top it all off, the college was still teaching NT as 2000 was being released. By the time I would have finished the degree program (right about now) NT wouldn’t be dominate anymore. So I dropped out.

Now there is a woman where I work who did complete the Network Engineering degree from Strayer. On paper and by HR standards she would be better qualified than me. She is, however, a complete nincompoop. Just the other day she came to me to say, “This program isn’t responding. Can you fix it for me?” I sat there for maybe a second before replying, “Have you tried shutting down all open applications and rebooting?” BINGO. Problem solved. I kid you not. You would think that a woman who had six or seven “college” level classes in NT could have figured that out on her own.

Nor is this the only the time this “college” educated woman has shown a genius for idiocy. I’ve programmed a database for my department and it has a number of processes to analyze the incoming data. Process 1 sets the stage for process 2 and process 2 prepares for process 3, etc. etc., all according to predefined business rules. This woman is habitually skipping one or more process, saying “Oh, that doesn’t apply to my data,” thereby not applying all the required business rules. Then she comes whining to me why nothing is as it should be when she is done. Getting her to understand the logic behind the database, that each process has an order precedence that must be followed by everyone at all times is daunting. College degree not withstanding, she needs to wear a conical cap. (Well, I guess she is good for something, proving the old saying that nothing is fool proof because fools are so ingenious, and I end up tightening the code to disable any chance of someone trying to skip a process. “Would she be foolish enough to try to do this way? Ayup. Put in a few more lines of code to prevent it.” Her idiocy forces me to be a better programmer.)

Despite all the heavy postulating and glorification of “critical thinking” skills and general knowledge benefits, I think it is important to realize that a degree is only calligraphied sheepskin, and there may or may not be an education behind it. With the influx of many students into college who can’t perform simple math or writing and the increase of adult education diploma mills, it might be wise to utilize those “critical thinking” skills and not to place such a sacred cow importance on the value of a college education. There may well be some people who exit with diploma in hand better able than they entered, but it shouldn’t be a universal assumption anymore.

I think there needs to be more stringent access to colleges and what can qualify for a college degree. Diploma mills like Strayer to be reclassified as vocational (at best) training.

When I got out of college with my liberal arts degree, what did I end up doing? I drove a truck and worked in shipping for a cassette/CD case company. Before moving ‘up’ to that position I worked on the assembly line . When they had to cut back I was the guy they cut. How lame is that?

So after a semester in music education (not for me) and learning a little about computers while at a work-study job, I packed up and moved to NYC. I used my paltry BA and computer skills, along with a heavy dose of enthusiasm, to get a job as a clinical research study assistant at world class cancer research center. After 6 years of that I taught myself (more like became a little familiar with) a wee bit of SAS programming and used that plus my experience to get a job as a clinical research data manager for a pharmaceutical company at twice the pay and half the stress of my previous job.

Why this little history? Because A) when I got out of college I didn’t really know what I wanted to do either (I’ve always enjoyed playing music but never had the focus and social skills to make a career of it) and was pretty aimless for a number of years. When the time came to apply for a job that I might actually find interesting, my degree was there to get me in the door. and B) there’s no curriculum at any school that I know of for the work that I do, which is kind of a blend of medical knowledge, database administration, management and coordination of outsourcing, and detective work. We hire people from masters level statisticians from the local ivy league university who have little actual experience to people like me who have a BA degree from a state university and some experience. We just learn as we go along. There’s no real formula.

So I guess what I’m saying is don’t be so quick to piss on your degree or be so hard on your parents and counselors and all the “something to fall back on” talk. Your degree just might come in handy someday, if it hasn’t already. Mine sure has.

*Originally posted by Acco40 *

Don’t feel too badly…many people feel the same way. Hell, looking back on my college experience, I wished I had done things differently.

I started out at a small liberal arts school because I had no idea what I wanted to do. I subsequently transferred to a state institution and got a degree in Business Administration, thinking that it would help me get a foot in the door in the working world. But I found that a lot of the courses I took for my degree were incredibly boring (don’t get me started on Accounting - sorry CPAs) and I feel I didn’t get the full college experience that, had I stayed at the school I origninally attended, I’m sure I would have gotten.

Did my business degree help? Well, I STILL didn’t know what I wanted to do after I graduated. So I joined the Air Force. After 5 years in the Air Force, I decided to get out and go back to school. But this time I decided to get an advanced degree in something that I liked and was truly intrested in (Geography). 3 years later I got a Master’s and just this past June I completed my Ph. D. Prior to completing my Ph. D., I was hired as an instructor at a community college and found that my interest in geography finally meshed with my talents and aptitude for teaching. So at the ripe old age of 38 I’ve finally figured out what I want to do with my life. Things may change of course, but it took me 10-15 years to get on the right track.

Don’t we all :slight_smile:

So does anyone think that colleges have a duty to acknowledge a change in purpose? Should they become more of what people are coming to understand and expect a college to be, a place to learn a career? Of course it takes time to learn a career. But is college necessarily the place to learn that? If college exists for academic pursuits and not for job training, meant for those that want to increase their knowledge, why does the job world require a degree that the heavy majority of posts have said they don’t need to do their job? Is college the only place to get these problem-solving skills. Surely I don’t have to pay thousands of dollars and four years of my life for it. I value my degree. I wanted one and am glad I have it, despite what I feel in hindsight about higher education’s lack of job training. But I could do my job without it. How much of what you learn in college about life is just from the four years between 18 and 22? Couldn’t Joe Freshman just enter the job market? Is my diploma my “grown-up” certificate? I wanted a college degree for the access it provides. I use my degree as a tool, it wasn’t a means to an end. I enjoyed what I learned for four years, but WHY IS IT NECESSARY FOR A CAREER?

*Originally posted by doggus *

Well, some are colleges are, but in my mind it would be a big mistake if ALL colleges did so. In the US we have a mutltitude of higher education institutions that help students get an education and training for a career. Community/junior colleges, for example. The emphasis in these institutions is to provide the necessary knowledge and training that helps prepare students to enter the workforce. Major universities have many programs with internships that help students get the necessary experience.
There’s a reason that liberal arts colleges are called liberal arts colleges. If you go to one, you’ll get a well-rounded education, but it’s mission isn’t geared toward training you for the workforce.

Because it helps businesses narrow their choices, and it helps them keep costs down. Businesses are always complaining that they would like to hire more high school graduates, but because of the decline in quality of the public school systems in the United States, you have a lot of people graduating that are ill-prepared to enter the workforce. A bachelor’s degree today is equivalent to the high school diploma of 20-30 years ago.

Hey, look at it this way, you managed to give a job to some teachers ha ha ha !!!

They suckered you out of your study years, this is what business is about ( a college is a business ), find a sucker and get their money.

In the ‘real’ world you either need to be trained to do a job ( go back to school or use your degree for teaching ? ) or do something which doesn’t require it like er, sales.

Seriously though, a college degree just helps you get interviews, if you can’t climb the greasy pole after that then your doomed anyway.

Right now you feel really bad BUT in 10 years you will be glad that you managed to get some part of your life NOT working and doing something more enriching.

Didn’t you realise that the law,medical,computer students etc. would have better job prospects ?

Thanks dude.

A worthy post.

College is fun and enriching, but it’s purpose, for many people, is access. Getting to that interview. You need to shell out thousands of bucks for the right to get an interview for a job you’re relatively underqualified for. The best you can do is fudge your resume in the job requiremants and technical knowledge areas. And wear a new haircut and a nice suit.

My advice to future college students: Put in the time, take electives that interest you, and read up as much as possible on how to get wicked creative with your resume. You’ll need to be adept at puffing up what little skills you have.

Employers aren’t looking for “great problem solver and critical thinker” on your resume. They’re looking for accomplishments and technical skills.

But previous posts are correct. Critical thinking and problem solving aptitiude are important. But those descripive terms are only useful on your hunt for that SECOND job. And even then they have to be on your employee evaluations, not on your resume.

That’s what bummed me out about college. Whether or not they need to have greater emphasis on job training is obviously up for debate. But they should provide enough technical skill within a student’s given field to help them land gainful employment.

Some people get lucky with a job right out of college, others face a long drought. But I think colleges could lend more of a helping hand. Then again they aren’t responsible for the job market are they?

One thing’s for sure, though. It’s easier for the employed to find new employment.

The least colleges could do is help you write a kick-ass resume.

That brings up another question: And again maybe this is just me…

Does it seem like you have to make yourself out to be more than you are on a resume in order to fit the requirements of a job that has been made out to be more than it is by an employer?

Or is it just a matter of creative truth-telling…on both ends?

I didn’t find dude’s post worthy at all. Cynical and misguided, maybe. I am half-desperate to know where you guys are getting your information about colleges and about employers. If this was IMHO you could spout as much as you want. You’re supposed to bring facts and knowledge to GD, and I’ve seen precious little of it in the bitter posts like these.

Okay, enough crabbing out of me.

As for your second topic. Here you do seem to be asking for opinion and anecdotes. In my experience, people who oversell themselves to get a job end up in hot water, constantly going to others to get help doing their work. It’s annoyed me when I’ve had people who have asked ME to do their statistical interpretation for them when they lied about their statistics comfort level in their job interview. Why would they want a job they do not have the skills for? I think that would be miserable.

My office is honest about our positions, too. It’s meant we’ve had trouble filling positions, but I’d rather be overworked waiting for the right person to come on board, than hire an extra body who ends up bitter because the job wasn’t what we said it was. We recently lost a computer support guy to another job. Two days later he called us and came back because of how misleading his interviewer had been. He wisely got out fast, and that employer got what they deserved for leaving out critical information.

Its up to you if you want to lie when you apply for a job, its a risk that they may check etc. BUT be aware that employers may lie to you as well.

The thing is NOT to appear a total square when you go for the job, be yourself and realise that you are selecting them as much as they are selecting you.

Important questions are things like ‘whats your staff turnover, why is the job vacant etc. etc.’ there are some mad places full of people desperate to get out.

The most important thing you will find is trying to find something you like and balance in work / life.

There are some sad people out there who live for their work and forget that their are more important things in life.

What about teaching - great holidays !!