Awesome – good sleuthing!
I grew up on the north shore of Long Island, and do not have a Lawn Guyland accent.
- I sat “truck.” In high school, we had one friend who said “chruck” (and “chree,” and “Star Chrek”), and we would sometimes kid him about it. But the rest of us said “truck.”
1a) It is a different sound. When I say the word, I start off with the tip of my tongue on the roof of my mouth. Mike would start off with the front part of his tongue — just behind the tip — on the roof of his mouth.
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I say “seeng” and “milk.”
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I hear the difference in Polerius’s pronunciation of “cents” and “sense.” I do the same thing if, for some reason, I have to make clear which of the two I’m saying, or if I’m emphasizing the word for some other reason (ditto “adolescents/ce” and “residents/ce”), but in usual speech they probably sound the same.
3a) Bravo for making and posting the recording. Wish I knew how to do that.
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I was certain that I said "idli, “badly,” and “Kid Lee” in two syllables, but now I’m not so sure.
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“Beetle,” though, is definitely two syllables. My tongue doesn’t even move; just my cheeks do.
How about the Carpenters doing Sing A Song?
Not good enough for anyone else to hear.
Kidding. But seriously…
I hear the “iiii” there as rather “short”. I think by “short” we mean with a “lax” mouth position, the tongue rather low along the central groove, the lips not smiling. If I try to make it “eee”, I sound like someone whose first language is, say, Spanish or French.
(Could Frylock’s supposed pronunciation be influenced by Texan Spanish? I doubt it, but I thought I’d throw it out there.)
Yes, me too. Thanks for pointing this out–now I understand, at least, what people are talking about when they say it’s not an ee sound. What she’s singing sounds completely natural–and it’s definitely the “short i”.
No idea if it’s an influence from Spanish. But a poster above said that the “ee” pronunciation can be found in the Appalachians, which to me means “hillbilly,” which you also find in Arkansas, which is not too far away from where I lived. So based on that tenuous set of stereotypes strung together, I feel the pronunciation is possibly explained.
How do you know that your perception to this effect isn’t a function of your perception?
I’ve heard people say things where they and I could hear certain letters in their pronunciation, but third parties insisted they weren’t there.
The most reasonable assumption to me is that, for certain sounds and constructions, everyone is that third party in some cases; that nobody without considerable training to this end can hear all possible pronunciations.
So far as the OP goes, I do pronounce the t sound, but I pronounce it for both words. This isn’t because I’m actually pronouncing a t sound, but because you block the air off from your lips with your tongue when you make the n sound, releasing the pressure to issue an s’s hiss causes a t sound between the two. It’s unavoidable.
Well put. A couple of previous posts have explained this already, but I think your way of explaining it might be the clearest so far.
OK, here’s my final thoughts on chruck v. truck for you naysaying linguists. Say “then” and “thin”. Hear how the th in then is voiced but the th in thin isn’t? Now say drug. The dr is voiced. Tr pronounced in truck is dr unvoiced. Try it and see.
Took you long enough to come up with that.
As a speaker of Puget Sound Standard English, you’re all crazy.
My midwestern parents always pronounce “battery” as “bat tree”, i.e. a tree that bats live in. Drives me batty (not a shirt that bats wear).
“What’s the longest lasting batree you can buy? I’m gonna surprise ya. New Energizer!”
I don’t know why this thread is back but…
In my neck of the woods, cents and sense are not homophones, but not because of the ‘t’, but because people around here (especially if you’re worked up and saying “Do you have any sense at all???”) will pronounce them “Cehnts” and “Since”.
And what’s the deal with Bostonians and “R”? I know they can say “Arrr” cause they’re always sticking them in strange places. Like:
“Dustin Pedroier pahked the caw.”
I don’t understand people saying that a [t] is inherent in “adolescence.” While I do normally say “adolescents” the same way, I can very easily say it with a marked [t], or at least /t/. The differences is in whether or not I am making a full stop or just a fricative. There is a bit of a pause between the n and the s, but it’s not being made by bunching up air behind the tongue and releasing it, like it is for the affricate [ts]. The [t] part of that sound is a much harsher stop.
I also think you guys must pronounce “ch” differently than I do. For me, it’s not just a more palatalized [t], but requires my teeth to be put together, the same way I do an “sh” sound. My tongue is actually often in the same position for both, with the bottom teeth making the difference.
That said, in the old poll, I definitely heard “chruck,” so what you guys do must sound the same as my “ch.” If I still had recording equipment, I would record me saying it both ways and seeing if I could tell the difference.
The position for my mouth is similar for “sh” and “ch,” but the tongue is different. I can go back and forth between “sh” and “ch” without moving my mouth position at all, but the “ch” requires a flick across the alveolar ridge. It’s basically a “t” + “sh” sound (and, in fact, that is how it is represented in IPA.)
When I make a t sound, the tip of my tongue touches the roof of my mouth. When I make a ch sound, the top of my tongue touches, a little further back. When I say truck, the tip of my tongue touches. I couldn’t make a ch sound in that position no matter how hard I tried.
But, microphones tend to distort plosives and sibilants. If you hear “chruck” on a recording, it’s probably because the sound has been distorted by the microphone.
I pronounce the “t” in cents and in adolescents, for sure, but I pronounce that same sound for the “ce” or “se” in adolescence and sense. Going from the voiced “n” to the unvoiced fricative “s” sound requires (or is at least facilitated by) a momentary tongue pinchoff, t-style.
Interesting. I pronounce the vowel in “sing” as somewhere in between the vowels in “sin” and “see”, and my family comes from Appalachia.
Yeah, for me it’s similar. The “t” is at the alveolar ridge, almost at the teeth, while the “ch” is slightly behind it. It’s not as far as the palate, so if I isolate the “t”, The beginning of the “ch” sound might me slightly higher back, but not too much. They’re both at the alveolar ridge for me. However, I do say “chruck” and “truck” exactly the same way.
At the significant risk of people quoting me and replying “WOOOSH!”… Here you go
{warning: introductory ad before song starts}
Anyway, to me “sing” is indeed siŋ and not sIŋ
but to be more precise, the “i” vowel is nasalized so it isn’t really either one; the nasalization changes it.