Or like cutting yourself while making guacamole and just being a little more careful next time you make it. If you scream and burst into tears every time you see an avocado, that’s an irrational fear. If you just take a little extra next time you slice open an avocado, that’s actually smart. . . not irrational at all.
And no woman here has in any way expressed a HYSTERICAL fear of men. It’s all a perfectly rational alertness.
Ok, I wasnt using hysterical in the sense that you think I did. Thought the meaning was pretty much unisex now, not “woman only irrational” fear.
Swap it for irrational if you want, since it’s what I meant.
Seems like a good opportunity to reflect on a past thread about creepy behavior, in which a female poster was asking for advice following a weird encounter with a pest control guy.
Why am I bringing up this thread? Because I distinctly remember pointing out that women are more apt to call certain behavior creepy than men are because of past experiences, and yet we’re also more likely to have our opinions dismissed as hypersensitive and hysterical. This thread attests to this very real thing.
Strangely, my assertion in that thread was countered with the claim that women fail to stick up for themselves because they are taught to be too nice, and so they let creeps get away with too much. Supposedly in contrast to men, who are raised to be straight talkin tough dudes who aren’t afraid to speak up when assailed with creepiness. Unsurprisingly, though, I see more women in the current thread(s) who are saying the correct response is to say something (either to management or to the guy) and I see more men saying to ignore it, it’s harmelss social ineptitude, blah blah.
All of this is to say, can we please let the whole “women are too nice” thing die already? Because the evidence (at least on this board) does not bear it out. If anything, women as a group are more prepared to go to battle at the first sign of creepiness than anyone else on the planet, because we experience it more often than anyone else and get sensitive to it. The problem is that we’re dismissed as silly and hypersensitive unless something egregious happens, and then when it does happen, paradoxically, we’re called to the carpet for not doing something about it sooner.
To call it a catch 22 would be an understatement. You can only laugh.
Okay, I want to make this just a little clearer: as a tween and teenager, I never experienced unwanted sexual behavior from folks. Once I was in college, it happened, but without much frequency. Where did it happen? Mostly at the gay nightclub, and from gay men who were impressed with my breasts, but not sexually interested in them. Occasionally since then, it’s been from guys who mistake me not immediately going “Ew, get away!” as an invitation to flirt with me and try to get in my pants.
My theory is that a lot of guys are less willing to try blatant behavior in case it’s unwanted and they have to face a woman who could potentially kick their ass. 
In all seriousness, I get messed with less for a number of factors: I’m tall and muscular; I look folks in the eye more often than not; I spent a lot of time hanging out with guys when I was younger, so I tend to act like one of the guys; I greet coworkers (especially men) with a firm handshake and look them right in the eyes; I’m aware of my surroundings, but not in an obvious “OMG, there might be attackers!” way; I don’t frequent bars and nightclubs where groping is super common; I let folks know right away when something’s not appropriate or makes me feel uncomfortable. Honestly, I think the fact that I’m the height of the average American male and have a little extra muscle is probably one of the biggest factors, but being confident and outgoing helps a lot. It doesn’t mean that no man is ever creepy, but it means that I encounter fewer creepy guys and tend to let those creepy guys know they’re being creepy right away.
As for the situation that started this whole secondary thread, is it really necessary for the Anti-Pedo Bear Brigade to get involved if the ladies that the guy at the gym was interacting with don’t look physically uncomfortable with his behavior? What if they’re friends having a conversation? Then your “involvement” is actively being a jerk and potentially banning the guy from the gym for no reason whatsoever. I personally think that the original OP in the first thread was being nosier than necessary.
I would say its not ok for anyone. We should all try to maintain a common sense level of awareness that doesn’t take your personal experiences into account, so that we don’t over or under react. Ask yourself this: if 100 random people were in my situation, how would the majority react?
Let yours or my 6yr old get undo attention from a preteen, its probably nothing. If I were a parent, I’d force myself not to be overly paranoid
No, its just an elevator. The chances are too remote for something bad to happen. Err on the side of the plausible.
That’s exactly right. How many hundreds of men do you think she’ll get into elevators with in her time as a tween, especially if she lives in an apartment with elevators. The kind of phobia and offense, and the subsequent anger and resentment far outweighs one grope
Or it could result in the owner taking your word for it since he doesn’t want to get sued and kicking the guy out for some made up reason. If he was simply socially awkward, how do you think that will affect his thinking of himself for the rest of his life?
Why not try it this way? Let him be creepy. So what if its creepy? A little creepiness never hurt anyone. The odds of harm coming from an overreaction to the creepiness is more than the harm coming from allowing him to be creepy. The worst thing that can happen if people ignored him is that a couple people feel odd around him, and either voluntarily leave or don’t come to the gym as much. The worst thing to happen if he’s reported is he gets kicked out and feels ashamed and resentful for something he’s innocent or ignorant of. Its a gym, not like he can corner them at a treadmill and grope away. If that happens, I’m sure there are plenty of people ready to beat his ass for sexual assault
“The kind of phobia and offense, and the subsequent anger and resentment far outweighs one grope”
That is a subjective judgment, and one Im pretty sure many people would disagree with, particularly people who have actually experienced them.
Nor does any of the actions described in this thread describe ‘offense’ or ‘phobia’ in my view, most of this is a disagreement about risk management with people trying to use emotive terms to try and make their case sound stronger than it really is.
Otara
Wow. Looking at some of the posts in here, it’s no wonder so many females are helpless…
I think you may have won this thread! Very well said!
I can accept that I was being nosy, but I did think the ladies looked uncomfortable. The two that got bumped looked startled, and immediately moved away. The one he was talking to got off the machine she had just started on and also moved away.
I still think the guy is weird, but I’m not going to do anything about it. If he keeps it up, someone more immediately involved than me will tell the management at some point. If he gets the message that people don’t like being bumped and stops on his own, problem solved.
To be more on topic for this thread, I’m 5’9", and I’ve been groped twice in my life, once as a teen and once as an adult.
If I wasn’t clear, I meant the phobia and offense on the part of the men. I will admit I don’t know how deep it goes or how many suffer from it, but from some of the responses in this topic, the numbers aren’t zero and needs to be taken into account. Creating in men a phobia about how they cannot be alone with children, especially female children, is more harmful, in my estimation, than a grope. Especially when you have some Dopers here commenting on how it affects them personally, then it seems a problem was created when there need not be in the first place.
In other topics, people have mentioned that they try not to be alone with kids for fear of false accusations. That is not healthy at all. Maybe I see that effect more than the effect of women traumatized by groping, but I can only think that there is an exaggeration on the part of the women that is not as prevalent on the part of the men, and that such a “creepiness” factor should be ignored by all who see it because its ultimately harmless. Even if the guy eventually turned out to be a harmful deviate, busting his actions now would do nothing to stop him in the future. He gets kicked out, so what? He’ll go to another gym where someone might not speak out? Meanwhile, allowing him to start uncomfortable conversations with women he doesn’t have the opportunity to assault is just an annoyance to the women and nothing more
If someone chooses not to be around me, thats ultimately their choice. If I find that upsetting, its generally up to me to find ways to deal with that, rather than expecting them to change. I dont find it that difficult myself, because I dont take it personally when someone is cautious of me as a stranger.
And as to the idea that nothing should be done about someone harassing people because he might do it somewhere else anyhow, I guess all I can say is I disagree.
Otara
I hate to tell you, but I don’t think management would do anything about someone who is “accidentally” bumping into women and talking to them. No one would do anything about that because that’s just ridiculous. I think we have different definitions for the term accidental - perhaps there is something that happened that you aren’t telling us.
Some of you obviously don’t understand what groping actually is. Someone accidentally bumping into you is not groping nor is it harassment.
Now, onto the next issue… Talking to people is a right that people have - sorry. Simply talking to someone is not against any rules. I’m sorry, but people have a right to socialize and people also have a right to ignore. If you don’t want anyone talking to you, ignore that person. Simple as that. This has been blown way out of proportion.
And yes, you are being extremely nosey. Mind your own business.
This is exactly what I’ve been trying to convey. Thank you.
You wrote so much and at the same time you have said absolutely nothing.
You are proving the point of living in a black and white world. Bravo!
It wasn’t accidental bumping. I’ve been pretty clear about that. I never said he was groping anybody.
“Simply talking to someone is not against any rules. I’m sorry, but people have a right to socialize and people also have a right to ignore.”
That kind of works both ways - people have a right to talk to management too, and they also have a right not to ignore things and to say someone is being a problem for them. And management has a right to decide what their customer base is, and whether to give feedback to anyone they’re concerned about having an effect on other customers or even ultimately decide they dont want them as a customer.
There will never be complete agreement on when someone should talk to management about a concern they have like this. In my view this situation can most easily be handled by letting people use their individual judgment rather than worrying overmuch if someone has different standards to your own.
Otara
Well, I become worried when people believe they have “spidey-senses.” Makes me wonder, sometimes…
Well if noone or no situation has ever given the creeps, you’ve done well I guess.
Getting the creeps too often, or thinking thats enough by itself to get someone kicked out a club or that kind of thing, I understand that.
But saying it should always be ignored and you’re not even allowed to avoid getting into a lift with someone you have a really bad feeling about, thats a bit extreme for me. Sometimes we react non-verbally more rapidly than we can intellectually identify why we’re having that reaction.
Otara
The thing is, Mr. Shoulder Bump was talking to women who walked away from him, and he followed them. People DON’T have the right to bother other people. And apparently Mr. Bumpy was annoying more than one person.
Oh yes. The helpful lad who doesn’t want to blame the victim, but have women ever considered being more vigilant, not walking home late at night, wearing revealing clothing or talking to strangers? It might sound crazy, but have they ever thought of comparing themselves to shiny new automobiles being flashed in a poor neighborhood?