Sure. But if the game did not have a save-point mode, wouldn’t you just accept that it is a Rogue-like?
You make it sound like you haven’t attempted to progress past the area?
If I thought the game would benefit from a save point, I would say so. I think “But this game CAN’T have that because arbitrary game nerd definitions!” is a poor reason to not make a game better.
Which isn’t to say that every roguelike needs a save point. Darkest Dungeon, for example, gets around it by making clear that you are not your party and your party is made up of expendable pawns. So if they get wiped, sucks to be them and you keep going.
I play a shitload of roguelikes. I’ve put enough time into Binding of Isaac that I’m genuinely glad the PS4 doesn’t track my hours, because I think the result might dismay me. I love 'em to pieces.
If you, Richard_Pearse, said that the inclusion of an optional save point system would let you approach a game that has brought me countless hours of entertainment, I would wholeheartedly support that. Why on earth wouldn’t I? What do I care about maintaining the integrity of the genre? You’d still be playing one of the greatest games of all time!
Who loses out in that scenario?
Every so often I head back to the skeletons to see if I’m good enough to take them on–and I’m not really there yet. I can reliably take out two sets, maybe a bit more if I’m lucky with my fireballs, but that’s about it. There is a giant skeleton which I can usually take out, and has decent XP. It would help if I had more fireball slots (I know they’re available, but I think I have to progress further).
In the Upper Burg, there’s a miniboss knight guy that I can’t take out yet. I think I could with better tactics, but I haven’t figured out the right trick yet. And I know there are two real bosses just beyond where I am now. I suspect the bosses are tougher than the minibosses, so I haven’t tried them yet.
Heh, I was just thinking the same about Darkest Dungeon. I think the current game loop holds up fine but if someone said they wished there was an optional save feature, I’d be fine with it. If people said they loved the art direction and narration and general vibe of the game but the potential to irrevocably fuck up a run with a single dumb move kept them from enjoying it, I certainly wouldn’t be “You need to understand that this game isn’t for you” or acting like it’s going to wreck something. Sure, add a save feature, throw a “No Saves” achievement into Steam so people can have their gold star to show off and have at it. Life’s too short to argue in favor of excluding people from cool games.
I guess we’re different then. I would certainly play Darkest Dungeon more if it had saved points etc, but I figure it’s just not for me. What’s wrong with that? It’s not a reflection on me, it’s just a mismatch between what I want and what a game is. I don’t feel like I’m missing out on anything by not playing a game that doesn’t suit how I like to play games.
Nothing. If you want to walk away from a game you’re not enjoying, that’s all good. I’m saying if someone else had said “I’d love to play this because [reasons] but can’t enjoy it because [other reasons]”, I’d be down with trying to remove the impact of the bad reasons because I’d rather see them enjoying the games I like than see them walking away, saying “Guess that’s not for me.” Especially over something as lame as game-concept purity when that can be preserved for the purists.
Even if we differ on that one aspect of the game and how much it impacts us, it’s a shame to never be able to talk about all the other cool parts they would have loved if only that barrier hadn’t been there.
Right. But I wouldn’t ask for save points in a Roguelike. It’s a core game mechanic. The developers of those games have made an intentional decision to have permadeath. It’s not an omission or something they didn’t think about, it was carefully considered. Me telling anyone that I’d love to play the game if only I could save my progress seems completely pointless, as pointless as suggesting a Souls game should have an easy mode, but we obviously don’t agree and I don’t think I have anything to further my point so I’m happy to agree to disagree.
Another real life example: the core gameplay for The Division 2 is the elimination of the enemies and collection of loot. However, surrounding that is a terrific environmental story about a post-plague city told in all sorts of clues and a lot of people really love discovering the lore. They released a raid for the game set in a whole new area and a lot of people were dismayed that doing the raid would require multiple groups and a level of gear and game proficiency they just didn’t have. People who were doing the raid would come back with “This part is for the End Game raiders, man. Git gud and gear up and join a clan if you want to see it”
The developers at Massive, however, eventually added a “trial” version of the raid. You wouldn’t get the full raid experience and wouldn’t get the special loot that could drop but you COULD explore the new map, get the lore hints, get the general gist of the raid mechanics, etc. They could have just tossed out the “End game only, n00blet” or “This raid isn’t meant for you” lines but they instead expanded it in a way that made it accessible to people who weren’t primarily shoot & loot pros but who still saw value in the game even if they’d never mechanically excel at it. No one lost and a number of people won.
I think you guys are completely delusional if you think that serious rogue-like fans wouldn’t be every bit as much as dismissive as a request for save & reload as serious souls-like fans are of a difficulty slider.
I’m sure many of them would be. My measured response, as a serious rogue-like fan, is fuck them.
Ah, but are you a true serious rogue-like fan?
You caught me. I’m a filthy casual.
No True Scotsman would allow anyone else to enjoy Scotland! It’s just not a country for you!
My go-to rogue-like is FTL. I played that game a LOT. I actually became pretty good at it but, more often than not, I’d lose at the end. I’d LOVE a save ability but I also get how not being able to save ups the tension. I certainly wouldn’t mind the option but I played it anyway.
This is why most serious video game fans have the reputation they do. I try not to worry about what gatekeeping antisocial dorks cry about.
Not just video gaming. All nerdy hobbies have cadres of jealous gatekeepers. It’s why I refuse to play board games or D&D with strangers.
I would be totally understanding if they had not done that. Provided that aspect of the game was clear from the start, it sounds a little bit like this was sprung on players unexpectedly. I’ve played a bit of The Division 2 but didn’t get to any raids. My biggest gripe with The Division 2 is all the inventory management and decision paralysis caused by having a multitude of upgrade / weapon / armour choices etc.
I’m thinking maybe the problem Eldon Ring has is that it has been marketed as “More Accessible” but it is still a Souls game and perhaps people are disappointed with that.
Yeah FTL is cool.