Stuff in the quotes Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden; my responses in between the quotations.
Uncorroborated testimony is not evidence.
“Almost” does not mean “Equals.” Isn’t there a saying about horseshoes which applies here?
Well, it’s testimony but is it believable testimony in this case?
Well, there’s actually a thing known as Law. There’s also a concept known as “Court of Competent Jurisdiction.” As the alleged abuse occurred (allegdly) in Cuba, that would be for the courts in Cuba to determine.
Also, it’s not good practice to destroy a family based on invalid testimony.
Agreed. So far the only folks coming out of this situation looking like they care a whit about the laws of this country are Mister Gonzales and Mr. Castro. The Miami-based relatives certainly, and by their own admission, have exactly zero intention of honouring the Rule of Law.
Funny how the mainstream media has stayed away from the dysfunctional nature of the Miami relatives.
Lazaro Gonzalez, the great uncle who “speaks for Elian”
2 DWI
Delfin, brother of Lazaro, and involved in the fight:
2 DWI
Twin cousins, Cid and Jose:
Multiple felony convictions, including assault, robbery, burglary, grand theft, and weapons charges.
Not to mention the apparently fragile state of Marisleysis Gonzales, the 22 yr. old “surrogate mother”, hospitalized 7 times for a “nervous stomach” or “emotional anxiety,”
including 1 time last summer before this even happened.
Makes one wonder who would win in a “Family Court” scenario…
Monty: I have assisted Govt attorneys in bringing cases to trial. I have also been a member of the Grand Jury. Eyewitness testimony is evidence. You can get convicted of a Capital crime, and be executed on nothing but. Only if the witness has been convicted of perjury can his testimony considered without meir. Of course, you must “consider the source”, some witnesses are better than others. This eyewitnesses testimony can not be used to CONVICT Sr. Gonzalez (in the US), but it could be used in a civil trial. So far, the Miami relatives ARE obeying the law. The Attorney General has no authority to step in and decide a civil matter. A Superior court, in fact, has ruled that Elain stays (for now). Why is everyone afraid of letting the Legal system, ordained by the US and Florida Constitution, and Codes, handle this? That is how we would handle any other custody battle, why not this one? If the Judge rules that Elain belongs w/ his father, THEN and ONLY then are the Miami relative disobeying the Law if they refuse to give Elain up. Hell, Reno knows this. If she thought she actually had the authority under the Constitution, she would be down there with a hundred US Marshalls and TAKE Elain away. She didn’t, because she knows she doesn’t have the authority.
“I shot the sherrif, I shot the deputy too. No, it wasn’t in self defense. They both looked at me cockeyed so I capped 'em. Then I shot the mayor, then the firechief, decapitated the librarian, impaled the dog catcher, used a spoon to remove the groundskeepers eyes and sent the leader of the local KKK in full KKK uniform to downtown Manhattan. Then I made sweet love to the sexy 18 yr old intern, and it was all good.”
Daniel, your experience with criminal trials is noted, but things don’t work the same way in Family Court. Generally when charges of abuse are put forward, a fact-finding hearing is held and the petitioner must present corroborating evidence. (I’ll admit here I’m not familiar with the particulars of Florida family law, but I’d be surprised if they were very different). In this case there are allegations only - from another Cuban exile, with suspect political motivations, who had six months to come forward with this testimony and is only presenting it now as all other options seem to be running out - from MY professional experience the idea that this would constitute sufficient evidence is absurd. If the Miami relatives don’t have anything concrete to offer it would be a waste of their, the court’s and Elian’s time to hold a hearing.
There have also been allegations that Lazaro Gonzalez sexually abused children when he was a teacher in Cuba. Funny but I don’t hear his supporters clamoring for a hearing on those charges.
Dannie: The Miami relatives are not obeying the law. They have consistently refused to obey the lawful orders of the federal agency responsible in this case.
Sorry to disappoint you, but you couldn’t be more wrong here. Watch some old Waco tapes if you want to get your demented rocks off.
Exactly. I have yet to figure out why people want to deprive this poor kid of his due process. I for one, think the father has at least some explaining to do before we can consider handing him his kid back and sending them on their way.
One thing a lot of people are forgetting here is that the INS is the agency that placed the kid with the Miami family in the first place. They are hardly kidnappers if a federal government agency actually delivered the boy to them.
They have been the only thing that has kept the government from acting improperly and immediately sending the kid back without the full consideration of the facts. From the beginning, they have been following the legal process and filing for appeals to courts with the proper jurisdiction. It seems unfair to me that people are expressing their frustration with the delays by berating the family who cares for this child and are the only ones defending his rights. They are only trying to get his case heard with full consideration of the facts by a court that has authority to do so. This has not yet happened, and until it does, the boy should remain. What’s so unreasonable about that?
I honestly believe that this case would be a lot different if the kid had been from a different communist or repressive country. I think people are projecting their displeasure with the Cuban exile community on this boy who doesn’t otherwise have a voice of his own. I can’t think of any other explanations why most people are in so much of a hurry to see the kid sent back before his well-being is considered. It’s either that, or Elain-fatigue, neither of which are valid reasons to deprive the boy of his due process. And yes, he IS entitled to his due process, as is anyone else who steps foot on U.S. soil.
Even a criminal found guilty of a crime is entitled to an appeal to a higher court. Are you saying that this boy, who has committed no crimes, isn’t entitled to the same?
The fact is that the previous court rulings have only found that the INS has the authority to enforce INS decisions. WTF?!? The boy’s rights and welfare have not yet been considered in court!
If you think the boy has no rights, and his welfare is best served by being back with his father in Cuba, then you shouldn’t be opposed to a proper court being given the opportunity to fully consider it and decide on the issue. Why leave such an important decision up to bureaucrats and the court of public opinion, neither of which have full knowledge of the facts?
The proper decision has been made—by the child’s father! Nobody has severed the paternal rights of the father, and if that is to happen, it should only be done by a court of competent jurisdiction. As I said above, in this case, that is only a court in Cuba.
Now, I’m no fan of Cuba, and I’m certainly no fan of Castro. However, chucking our legal obligations under the treaties we’ve made is not the way to go about showing how good this land is.
ruadh; I agree the testimony of abuse may well not be “SUFFICIENT” evidence, but it is evidence, and would be admitted in any criminal trial. I am not up on family court, I will admit, but I can’t see the rules of evidence being THAT different.
MONTY: Once we have given Elain Political asylum, cuban courts have no juristiction. Besides, I can & have seen US Courts overide the Admin, but any Court in a Communist Dictatorship has no such option.
I do not know what all the evidence is, and I doubt if any poster on the board has seen ALL the evidence. So, let us leave the decision up to a neutral, unbiased Judge, who has seen ALL the evidence, eh? If such a hearing occurs, I’m guessing 60% return to father.
You know, I only read the first 3 or 4 posts. At this point, I really don’t care.
IMO, This kid can kiss my ass. His Grandparents are to be stoned, not lauded. They;ve sensationalized this whole thing–of course Elian wants to stay here now.
I don’t care whether his father deserves him or not. I just want the little bastard out of my country. I want him to stop causing shit. I want the rallies and riots and protests to stop. I want there to be no issues between Cuba and America.
I think this whole mess sucks. I want it over with. He needs to go home to dad.
Yeah, well I still say that either way this comes out, there WILL be flames in Miami.
Dennis Miller made a very good point last night when he said that if a 6 yr old American kid washed up in Guantanamo bay his ass would be back in the US so fast he’d be 5.
That’s a fact, Jack!
Months and months. Can you imagine the Americans putting up with this bullshit from the Cubans for that amount of time, were the situation reversed?
This is crap. If the National Guard can be called in to enforce the rule of law to escort a little black girl into a public school in Alabama, then I say, enough of this.
So far, I have seen this child with every toy imaginable, from a cell phone to a rabit,he has been paraded and politicized, now there are hundreds of people screaming on his front lawn. He’s suddenly afraid of returning to Cuba? He’s 6 yrs old. These people had never even met this child before this, they were perfect strangers to him. They have had their own agenda from the onset. They may even have led this child to believe that his mother may ‘return’ if he stays in Miami.
Wisdom is the boobie prize,they give you when you’ve been --unwise!
His family in america(uncle I think? I thought grandparents), has had moral mis-givings from the start.
This has absolutely 0 to do with his welfare, but is more likely to be some “neener, neener” move against his father.
This can only go sour for us and most likely his family as well. We should be enforcing the courts decision and returning this kid. Of course at this juncture, he’ll not be happy with his father, and the meager living of Cuba. I’d imagine if he ever goes home he’ll be terribly depressed and have a lousy childhood.
Neglect? abuse? I think not. He’s simply been poisoned against Cuba and his father by his american family.
Please don’t brush me off with a flippant answer, TomH. I was kidding about not paying attention in civics class; I do know about all that “separation of powers” stuff, and “electoral colleges” and “bicameral whatnots”, OK?
What I really wanted to know was (and what has never been adequately explained to me), what’s Janet Reno’s rationale for getting the Justice Dept. involved in this whole thing in the first place? I agree with Freedom and Daniel~: this is a custody dispute that should have been resolved long ago by the appropriate court. Why does the Attorney General feel a need to butt in? I have to wonder (somewhat cynically) how much of her interest is directly proportional to the level of media attention.
I get the jim jams whenever the head of a big government agency like the FBI (or the National Park Service, come to that) starts using his (or her) agency to carry out some personal agenda. What’s Janet Reno’s interest in this, anyway?
Not to mention all the flip-flopping: he stays, he goes, he stays, he goes…What is going on here?
I don’t think that simply referring to “separation of powers” answers my question, either. Aren’t the Justice Dept. and the court system both in the “judicial” branch, or is that an oversimplification? Aren’t they both on the same “team”? They should be working together, instead of fighting each other. It sounds to me like when the FBI and the DEA argue over who gets credit for a drug bust–they’re supposed to be on the same team, but there they are, arguing pointlessly while the drug dealer sits and smirks.
“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen
Elian’s Miami family, all of those Cuban-American protestors, Rush Limbaugh and everybody else who wants to turn this into a political stand against the Castro regime ought to be ashamed of themselves.
I also find it interesting that at least part of this soap opera is now turning to “what little Elian wants.” Excuse me, but, um,WHO CARES?
I think my parents probably had and deserved the right to make decisions for me when I was 6.
The Miami family clearly doesn’t have the boy’s best interests in mind at all. Why are they parading him out in front of the media horde daily, like a zoo animal? Why are they allowing the noisy protests mere feet away from him, hour after hour, day after day? Why that sickeningly rehearsed video tape?
Because they have a political agenda, just like all those other people down there screeching and giving me a headache.
As the father said on “60 Minutes” Sunday: This has become a kidnapping. In what other scenario would law enforcement not act immediately?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the Justice Department is under the purview of the executive branch, not the judicial. If so, that’d explain it.
ELBOW “They may even have led the child to believe his mother may ‘return’ if he stays…”-- do you have a shred of evidence to back up this horrible accusation?
GAWD: If we “enforce the court’s decision”, HE STAYS.
MILO; “kidnapping”, KIDNAPPING for god’s sake?!?
There is a Superior Court order out; ELAIN STAYS (for now). Thereby, the lawful position, is that HE STAYS. It is not “kidnapping” for krissakes. For now, thw miami relatives have the “law” on their side.
So, I want to hear all those that said “the LAW says he goes so he goes” NOW say “the LAW says he stays, so he stays”, or was citing “the law” just a convienent excuse for pro-commie US bashing? Now that the shoe’s on the other foot, it doesn’t sound so good, eh?
NOT: thanks for your input. Justice dept is part of the Exectutive branch, tho.
I saw the father on “60 minutes”. That’s all I needed to be sure of my opinion.
Send the boy back home with his father, where he belongs. Now. The people in Miami are obviously filling the kid’s head with bullshit about his dad. Send all the new toys with him in a crate, rabbit included (probably wind up in the stew).
Small legal point:
Who owns the toys? anybody know?
Peace,
mangeorge
Teach your kids to bungee jump.
One them might have to cross a bridge someday.
You’re missing the point. The testimony may be admissible, but why bother holding a hearing if all you’ve got is insufficient evidence? Do your government attorneys take cases to trial when they know they haven’t got anywhere near enough evidence to convict - wasting taxpayer money and further clogging up the court system, all for a verdict that hasn’t got a prayer of going their way? I certainly hope not, and it shouldn’t happen in this case either.
You know, I will plead ignorance of the nth degree on that one.
I will also re-enter my post as a "VIOLATE THE LAW AND SEND THE WEAPON OF WAR HOME TO CUBA"
My only point thus far, whether I was right about the judgement or not, is that the kid is being used, and it’s bullshit. He needs to go home to his dad, and his rotten uncle needs to stop stirring the shit; so to speak.
They’ve turned this thing into a three-ring circus, and I think it’s inhumane, and ridiculous. He belongs with his dad, he needs to be de-programmed from his uncle, he does NOT need asylum. He’s underage(so daddy can call the shots), he has a LEGAL guardian in Cuba.
So get off of your high-horse Daniel, and realize that you’ve bought in to the media crap too.
