EMDR Therapy - is this just scientology, or what?

So Hentor

Efficacy: both work.

Efficiency: the EMDR site cites studies that show that it is effective in fewer sessions and with less at home work. It would be important to see if that could be replicated.

Your claim that the protocol is the same as CBT exposure therapy with a bow tied on - not from what I can read about how each is performed. Some similarities to be sure, but different. Perhaps you can specifically describe the CBT exposure therapy protocol and contrast it to the one used in EMDR (as described on their site). To me they seem different. Heck, just the requirement for at home work makes them substantially different. We may just have to just agree to disagree here.

Cost comparison: unknown.

Time investment: more for CBT. I understand your desire for homework but often people have busy lives … kids, jobs, etc. … devoting who knows how many extra hours per week is not something many are eager to do if it is not required to fix the problem.

Part of what is going on here is that we are coming from different perspectives. You are a mental health provider who seems to see EMDR providers as competition unless you fork up some money for training. Clearly if you currently do CBT then there is no current convincing evidence that you would be adding anything to the quality of your patients’ care by becoming certified in EMDR. The tools you have work just as well.

I am looking at it from the points of view of a primary care doc who may be asked about the treatment and as a member of a medical QA/UM committee (although we generally sub out mental health benefits, but still, in mindset). My issue isn’t what you need to go through to get certified but whether or not it works and whether or not it is cost effective. As a patient I would prefer the treatment that was as effective, required less of my time (which is in short supply despite the hours I play each week here), and has the potential to work faster.

EMDR works. It requires less patient time investment. From my perspective I’d be hard pressed to tell someone to do CBT over it. And if it turns out to be cheaper in some future head to heads then my QA/UM side would advise it as first line.

You know what I do when someone I’m working with has a concern about a medical condition or treatment, given that I am not an expert?

I refer them to an expert without making a recommendation.

I have no dog in this fight, but it’s worth listing another respected source apart from the British Medical Journal - the Cochrane reviews.

Their conclusion:

“There is evidence that individual trauma focused cognitive-behavioural therapy (TFCBT), eye movement desensitisation and reprocessing (EMDR), stress management and group TFCBT are effective in the treatment of PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder). Other non-trauma focused psychological treatments did not reduce PTSD symptoms as significantly. There is some evidence that individual TFCBT and EMDR are superior to stress management in the treatment of PTSD at between 2 and 5 months following treatment, and also that TFCBT, EMDR and stress management are more effective than other therapies. There is insufficient evidence to show whether or not psychological treatment is harmful. Trauma focused cognitive behavioural therapy or eye movement desensitisation and reprocessing should be considered in individuals with PTSD.”

Which expert?

One who makes a determination based on something more than having looked it up on this one website one time.

You really don’t have any understanding of the position a primary care doc who tries to do their job well is in, do you?

I need to make a referral. Do I send to the specialist who does A or the one who does B? They are both out there. Now not being an expert and not have an independent fund of knowledge upon which to make a decision I’ll look to the expert panels that have made evidence-based recommendations. If they say A works but B doesn’t I’ll send to the one who does A, if they say both work then I’ll give both names with equal encouragement and try to explain what the differences are to the limits of my knowledge so that the patient can make a somewhat informed decision.

I’m not a reading specialist either but if someone tells me they have been advised by someone else to go see “an expert” who treats dyslexia with visual tracking therapy I’ll still advise against it. I wouldn’t if there was evidence that it worked. (Please no hijack by any one who believes in that stuff.)

I did refer to the experts, in this case the expert panels. The experts have overwhelmingly concluded that EMDR is effective therapy and have not bought the argument that it is merely CBT with a bow tied on. They consider it as a separate treatment approach.

But I guess you don’t mean those experts; you mean just you.

I sometimes refer people to practitioners who use different validated techniques because not every client/patient finds the same interventions effective or comfortable. A type of intervention that’s effective for 65% of a sample is, of course, ineffective for 35%, and other methods may work well for an overlapping set of people.

How much extra cost and time is involved in teaching it in comparison to just teaching the regular treatments alone?

No, I’m sure I don’t. I do see many people who have gotten awful, incorrect psychiatric diagnoses and psychiatric pharmacotherapy from primary care physicians practicing beyond their expertise, however.

Which expert panel concluded that EMDR is meaningfully different from CBT?

Here’s where things stand regarding EMDR: There is no evidence to support the assertion that eye movement is a necessary mechanism, or makes any difference in treatment. EMDR proponents have expanded their claims to include essentially all manner of “bilateral stimulation.” There remains no evidence to support any difference in outcomes with “bilateral stimulation” and any other therapy. No differences are found in the effectiveness of EMDR and CBT. No evidence exists that there are differential rates of dropout or of treatment duration. The literature cited by EMDR adherents is rife with studies of extremely suspect methodology, including a high number of studies with very low sample sizes. There is simply no evidence supporting that EMDR is different from CBT in any meaningful way.

The good news is that you are not likely doing any harm to anybody. At least, there is no evidence that finger waving is causing any harm or is reducing the effectiveness of CBT interventions.


Seidler, Guenter H; Wagner, Frank E. Comparing the efficacy of EMDR and trauma-focused cognitive-behavioral therapy in the treatment of PTSD: A meta-analytic study. Psychological Medicine. Vol 36(11) Nov 2006, 1515-1522.

Abstract: Background: Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR) and trauma-focused cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT) are both widely used in the treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). There has, however, been debate regarding the advantages of one approach over the other. This study sought to determine whether there was any evidence that one treatment was superior to the other. Method: We performed a systematic review of the literature dating from 1989 to 2005 and identified eight publications describing treatment outcomes of EMDR and CBT in active-active comparisons. Seven of these studies were investigated meta-analytically. Results: The superiority of one treatment over the other could not be demonstrated. Trauma-focused CBT and EMDR tend to be equally efficacious. Differences between the two forms of treatment are probably not of clinical significance. While the data indicate that moderator variables influence treatment efficacy, we argue that because of the small number of original studies, little benefit is to be gained from a closer examination of these variables. Further research is needed within the framework of randomized controlled trials. Conclusions: Our results suggest that in the treatment of PTSD, both therapy methods tend to be equally efficacious. We suggest that future research should not restrict its focus to the efficacy, effectiveness and efficiency of these therapy methods but should also attempt to establish which trauma patients are more likely to benefit from one method or the other. What remains unclear is the contribution of the eye movement component in EMDR to treatment outcome.

Beriault, M; Larivee, S. French review of EMDR efficacy: Evidences and Controversies. Revue de Psychoeducation. Vol 34(2) 2005, 355-396.

Abstract: EMDR is an integrative psychotherapy approach proposed to treat a wide range of psychological disorders. This is the first French review of EMDR effectiveness. The EMDR effectiveness is initially show with uncontrolled cases studies that suffers from important methodological weaknesses. Experimental case studies provide equivocal results. Controlled studies are then reviewed as a function of the type of experimental control used and the type of disorder treated. EMDR appears as effective as cognitive-behavioral therapy for the treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder but cognitive-behavioral therapy remains the treatment of choice for specific phobia and panic disorder. In addition, dismantling studies repeatedly show that eye movements are not necessary for the efficacy of EMDR. An analysis of the differences and similarities between EMDR and the cognitive behavioral approach is presented. Pseudoscience elements embedded in EMDR development and diffusion are also presented.

Treatment of posttraumatic stress disorder in children and adolescents–A review of treatment outcome studies. Kraft, S; Schepker, R; Goldbeck, L; Fegert, J. M. Nervenheilkunde: Zeitschrift fur interdisziplinaere Fortbildung. Vol 25(9) 2006, 709-716.

Abstract: Based on a systematic literature search, the current state of knowledge on the efficacy of psychotherapeutic and pharmacologic treatment of posttraumatic stress disorders in children and adolescents is summarized and reviewed. Nineteen randomized controlled clinical trials were found for psychotherapy, and none for pharmacotherapy. The efficacy of cognitive behavioral treatment programs has been substantiated, with the participation of a parent or caretaker in the treatment seeming to be beneficial. There are promising studies for Eye Movement Desensitizafion and Reprocessing (EMDR) and for Multisystemic Family Therapy. However, because of small sample sizes and lacking replication, their results have to be regarded as provisional. Up to now, there are no controlled clinical trials on pharmacological treatments for traumatized children and adolescents. More studies on this numerically relevant and partly severely impaired group are to be claimed. Studies on differential indication of different treatment approaches and on the efficacy of combination treatments, as psychotherapy plus pharmacotherapy, are lacking.

Johnson, David Read; Lubin, Hadar. The Counting Method: Applying the Rule of Parsimony to the Treatment of Posttraumatic Stress Disorder. Traumatology. Vol 12(1) Mar 2006, 83-99.

Abstract: The authors contend that the primary therapeutic element in psychological treatments for posttraumatic stress disorder is imaginal exposure, and that differences among major approaches are determined more by secondary techniques designed to circumvent the client’s avoidant defenses against exposure. A study is described comparing Prolonged Exposure, Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, and the Counting Method with 51 multiply-traumatized women. Measures of PTSD were significantly reduced by all three methods, but differences among the methods were negligible. Because the Counting Method utilizes only imaginal exposure as a therapeutic element, support is given to the more parsimonious conclusion that imaginal exposure may be both the necessary and sufficient factor in therapeutic effect, countering a trend in the field toward more complex, multi-faceted treatment packages.

Richards, David. The eye movement desensitization and reprocessing debate: Commentary on Rosen et al. and Poole et al. Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapy. Vol 27(1) Jan 1999, 13-17.

Abstract: The debate conducted in this journal between A. D. Poole et al (see record 199910827-001) and G. M. Rosen et al (see record 1998-10219-001, 1999-10827-002) and elsewhere on the effectiveness of eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR) is characterized by incredulity, fervent belief and emotion. Theorists and clinical pragmatists, not to mention the “discoverers” of EMDR, have often taken up oppositional stances that impede rationale debate. While some may be offended by the overt commercialism and messianic fervor of the EMDR lobby, the best response is to engage in dialogue, collaboration and scientific experiment. These experiments should combine the best randomized clinical trial methods with experimental deconstruction of the complex mix that now comprises EMDR. Those who have developed EMDR should cease the commercial and empirical protectionism that has characterized the EMDR movement and open their methods to such investigation by the healthily skeptical.

Hembree, Elizabeth A; Foa, Edna B; Dorfan, Nicole M; Street, Gordon P; Kowalski, Jeanne; Tu, Xin.Do patients drop out prematurely from exposure therapy for PTSD? Journal of Traumatic Stress. Vol 16(6) Dec 2003, 555-562.

Abstract: Many studies have demonstrated the efficacy of exposure therapy in the treatment of chronic posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Despite the convincing outcome literature, a concern that this treatment may exacerbate symptoms and lead to premature dropout has been voiced on the basis of a few reports. In this paper, we examined the hypothesis that treatments that include exposure will be associated with a higher dropout rate than treatments that do not include exposure. A literature search identified 25 controlled studies of cognitive-behavioral treatment for PTSD that included data on dropout. The results indicated no difference in dropout rates among exposure therapy, cognitive therapy, stress inoculation training, and Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR). These findings are consistent with previous research about the tolerability of exposure therapy.

Foa, Edna B; Rothbaum, Barbara O; Furr, Jami M. Augmenting exposure therapy with other CBT procedures. Psychiatric Annals. Vol 33(1) Jan 2003, 47-53.

Abstract: Most studies on treatment outcome for posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) have used cognitive behavioral therapy (CBR) programs, which include variants of exposure therapy, anxiety management, and cognitive therapy. Combinations of these interventions have also been investigated. More recently, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR) has been employed for the treatment of PTSD, and a number of studies have explored its efficacy. In the treatment guidelines developed under the auspices of the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies, exposure therapy has emerged as the most empirically supported intervention for PTSD. In this article the authors focus on reviewing well-controlled studies that compared the efficacy of exposure therapy to that of other interventions. In comparing outcome across studies, the focus is on percent change from baseline on the main PTSD measure calculated on completers whenever possible. Result suggest that exposure therapy is highly effective; treatment effects appear to be diminished by diluting exposure therapy when attempting to augment it with other treatments.

Hensel, Thomas. Effectiveness of EMDR with psychologically traumatized children and adolescents. Kindheit und Entwicklung. Vol 15(2) 2006, 107-117.

Abstract: EMDR (eye movement desensitization and reprocessing) has proved to be an independent, effective, and empirically validated approach for the treatment of chronic post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) in adults. This work provides an overview of the status of research into the use of EMDR in traumatized children and adolescents. The available controlled randomized studies are summarized and assessed for their methodistic value. The empirically supported and effective treatment is described. The results show - albeit on a narrow empirical basis - that EMDR, when used in children and adolescents, demonstrates a comparable effectiveness in symptom reduction and efficiency (limited treatment duration) to that observed in adults. Issues relating to the integration of the treatment into the existing care structure are discussed.

There is no other treatment that is commercialized like EMDR. Several years ago was the last time that I looked into what they were charging for training. Like Scientology, there was Level I training and Level II training. I recall that it was a couple thousand per level back then. I don’t know what the charge is now.

Here’s what a little browsing of the web turned up in terms of what is required to be EMDR certified:

“EMDRIA Approved Consultants must meet all criteria to be Certified in EMDR. In addition, they must have three years of experience with EMDR after completing an EMDRIA Approved Training Program, have conducted at least three hundred clinical sessions in which EMDR was utilized, and have received twenty hours of consultation-of-consultation from an EMDRIA Approved Consultant. They must complete twelve hours of continuing education in EMDR every two years.”

So it sounds like after the training, they get you by requiring consultation hours and continuing eductation stuff as well.

Besides the fact that the descriptions of the role of imaging in the exact process seems different, there is the difference of at home work or not. Now you can like at home work or not but if they are exactly the same, then CBT should work just as well without doing that work. That work is just a pretty bow added on top. Do you believe that to be true?

And I’ve seen the same bad care from psychiatrists, and awful inappropriate labels attached by psychologists. Your point is? I still have a responsibility to make sure that my patients get to someone who is giving them help that is the most likely to help them and to keep them out of the hands of those who would not.

DSeid, what panel has concluded that EMDR is meaningfully different from CBT?

Anytime an expert panel reports on two different treatments they are implicitly stating that they are two different treatments.

Care now to answer my question of post#31: is the at home work a difference between the two approaches or just a meaningless pretty bow added on top?

Who says there is any at-home work difference?

ETA: The fact that there is commentary on EMDR and CBT is that EMDR is said to be a different therapy by its practitioners and adherents. It has no bearing on whether there are any actual differences.

Everyone here is comparing it to CBT… that’s what I was referring to.

Once you complete a degree and obtain licensure as dictated by your state, you are able to practice as you see fit. CBT would likely have been taught as part of your training, but there is no “CBT Institute,” nor any licensure or franchise that your training program would have to subscribe to. On the other hand, once you finished training and state licensure, you would still have to go through an EMDR level I and level II training to provide EMDR, apparently along with consultation and EMDR-specific CE.

OK gotcha. And I suppose there aren’t any degree and licensure programs that currently include EMDR as part of the curriculum the same way they include CBT.

Hentor - you do not need to be “certified” by the EMDR professional organization to do EMDR or to be paid for a session in which EMDR is provided.

Going through a list of therapists who market themselves as EMDR therapists I see that some tout being certified and that some make no mention of certification.

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy indeed has a certifiying body as well.

And as for your question

Well we have established that EMDR does not have any at home work requirement already and we already had the EMDR folks saying that was one difference but hey they are a biased source, so let’s go by what the National Association of Cognitive-Behavioral Therapists says:

So that’s who. (Y’know, the certifying body for CBT that you say does not exist.)

So my question remains unanswered: is that “central feature” just a pretty bow on top?