Engineer_comp_geek, are you *aware* how racist this moderation sounds?

What is your standing to say so? Versus his?

How can it be “justified” if he’s “reading too much into some posts”? If it’s justified, then the posts justified it. Like I said, he didn’t start out posting angry in that thread. Unless just bolding words is “angry” to you?

The argument isn’t if the posts should be moderated. The argument is the specific moderation focused on BB’s tone as being the issue, separate from content.

There can be a way to achieve the goal without tone policing BB to exception of the content of the post, and while acknowledging his right to express his righteous anger. Part of the problem is that the moderation was a dismissal of the righteousness portion, and just a focus on the anger.

So, only @slash2k should have been thread banned or neither should have been thread banned? Because tone was the whole point, that tone is not acceptable in MPSIMS.

Only slash2k should have been thread-banned, and with a warning, and that for the content of their posts, not the tone. Banquet_Bear should just have been mod-noted, if that. And certainly not had his ATMB thread closed with more weaponized tone policing

My evaluation of it was that initially their comments on both sides were acceptable for the forum. However, their resulting back and forth was not, so both were thread banned.

I am required as a moderator to evaluate posts and determine whether or not they are acceptable for the forum (which is not the same as saying that I approve of them), and if they rise to the level of hate speech or otherwise violate the rules.

If you have something specific to recommend, I would be happy to hear it.

I’m pretty sure you’re not required to do so in the most racist-sounding way possible, with the condescending advice on how a PoC can best tone-police himself…

What about B_B’s post violated the rules? Sarcasm isn’t against the rules in ATMB, last I checked.

And just so we’re clear, this thread isn’t about the original thread, it’s about you closing the ATMB thread and the way you did so. I wanted to make that clear since you spent most of your first reply here talking about the original MPSIMS thread, not the ATMB one. Even if the modding in the first thread was correct (it wasn’t), this thread would still exist just from your closing post in the ATMB one.

If you are referring to @Banquet_Bear’s other thread that was closed in ATMB, the thread wasn’t closed due to rule violations. @Banquet_Bear was starting to drive that thread off the rails as well, and the thread was clearly no longer serving any practical purpose.

I allow a lot of rule violations in ATMB as long as the underlying purpose is to resolve some sort of issue. If you come in here angry I’m generally pretty forgiving about that (other mods wanted to issue warnings for some of the posts in the other ATMB thread). Not so much in other forums. If you are angry and drive a thread off the rails in any of the other non-Pit forums, expect to be moderated for it. Like I said, even if you’re right, that doesn’t give you a free pass to derail threads.

Sarcasm isn’t technically against the rules in ATMB, but since the point of ATMB is often to resolve issues, sarcasm is rarely helpful and generally works counter to that goal.

Why do you need to ask, when I helpfully included a link to the post in question and everything?

It was his own thread. And I certainly didn’t see it going off any rails. His post was on-topic and related to the modding of the thread he was no longer allowed to directly comment in.

The issue here is modding on race-related issues. A little anger from the marginalized is perfectly on point for that.

No, it’s the response to well-deserved sarcasm that often derails things.

And this issue is never going to get resolved if you keep shutting up the people who have every damn right to be a little sarcastic. Earned that right, I’d say. That goes for questioning the modding on racism, on misogyny, on transphobia.

I got interrupted before completing my post, but when I started typing the link wasn’t there.

And I’ll repeat myself at the risk of boring you - the issue isn’t just that you closed the thread, it’s how you did so.

Well, if were talking about the mod note listed in the OP, I’d start by removing commentary about it being a hot button topic for BB and recommendations that he stop posting about it on the SDMB. You made it BB’s anger issue, rather than an issue of MPSIMS vs the Pit. You want to avoid lecturing him on whether he’s entitled to be angry or allowed to express it. Instead, saying that you recognize that the comments are problematic and you acknowledge his anger but the Pit is a more appropriate place for the discussion.

Then, importantly, you then focus on the comments that he’s replying to, and call out the impact the words are having on a member of the indigenous community. Acknowledging BB anger and focusing on the impact (even if it was unintended) reinforces his right to be angry when a racially charged comment is made.

In other words, the benefit of the doubt goes to the BIPOC person when they say that comments are crossing the line.

Now, this is an off the cuff answer, and may be incomplete and imperfect, but I think you get the idea.

FWIW, doing this right is really hard. I totally blew it at work with one of my personnel, not stepping in and shutting something down when I should have. At the moment I was tongue tied and frozen, and I know this work better than some. It’s hard, because the “rules” we may have grown up with don’t apply, but for good reason.

It is a hot button issue for him, and as I said, even if he’s right, that doesn’t give him a free pass to drive threads off the rails with it. How do I say that without it being a racial issue?

I’m an old white guy, but honestly killing kids is a hot button issue for me as well. Which made me scratch my head about the original thread staying in MPSIMS.

“BB, I get why you’re angry. Those posts were inappropriate and even if he’s not intending them to be insulting, they clearly are impacting you that way. While your anger is justified, the Pit is the place for heated discussions on this board.

(I can’t remember who the poster was), your comments are coming off as insensitive and are crossing a line. Please listen to what BB is communicating to you about your language being dismissive of this situation. Again, a heated back and forth is better suited for the Pit.”

Not perfect bc it’s off the cuff, but that’s the idea.

This reads, to me, like you think he’s deliberately using his anger in a race-card-y way.

You want to maybe think about what that says about your thinking on this issue, and the kind of intent you’re assigning to Bear, there? Because it tracks very much with parts of the Black Buck trope I linked to in the OP.

I can’t claim to be “indigenous” in any way so I cannot claim or pretend to share Banquet_Bear’s experiences at all.

That being said, despite all the disagreement, I think there is broad underlying agreement in this thread on two things:

  1. It’s appropriate for PoC to get angry about topics pertaining to them and their race directly, as long as their anger is kept within reasonable limits. Nobody is saying they shouldn’t be allowed to show any anger in the least, nor is anyone saying it’s acceptable for them to flame away completely unrestrained.

  2. PoCs shouldn’t derail threads that aren’t at least in some way related to their race or race-topic.

I wouldn’t phrase it as just “their race” only. Indigenous peoples’ solidarity stretches past the bounds of mere ethnicity.

Okay, maybe I should re-phrase. (too late for me to edit)

But - the broader two points still remain - threads shouldn’t be hijacked, and anger is OK as long as it remains within reasonable limits.

Sure, I agree, but “reasonable limits” is where, I think, the mods fall down currently. They play far too hard into both-sidesing everything.