English Among the Germanic Languages

As I understand it, Icelandic is the most conservative among the Germanic languages. Learning it is not unlike learning Latin, with all the case endings. And Icelanders can still read their sagas. It is ancient and very complicated.

But where does English stand on the conservative/liberal or modern scale? As I may have said before on these boards, English alone holds the distinction of having most of its verb senses made up of auxiliary verbs. So it is the most liberal (if I’m using that word correctly) and modern, isn’t it?

And while I am asking, where does German (I mean the official version–I know there is more than one) fall on this scale (I rarely hear people even talking about German)? :slight_smile:

If I understand that right, standard English isn’t any “worse” than German in this regard. German uses a modal future, a “have”-construction for the perfect, and – to the extent it exists at all – a “be”-construction for the gerundive.

If you include phonology, (high) German may have even further departed from the original Germanic than English. There’s the t-s–change (water => Wasser) or the affrication (cat => Katze), which happened in German, not English.

Change in language is often misunderstood, just as evolution in living things is.

There’s no end goal, there’s just change. A lot of Indo-European languages have reduced their case endings over time. Other have retained them. Losing case endings does not make language more “liberal”, or “modern”, or better… just different. All the information previously conveyed by case endings is now conveyed by other means. Someone whose native language uses case endings might view the English system of auxiliary verbs and such as an awkward kludge. If the English method of verbs is seen as superior somehow it’s because English is a widespread world language backed by large militaries, not because of some inherent goodness. If Icelandic had somehow become dominant we might be sitting here discussing the concise efficiency of case endings and deploring the jury-rigged kludgy makeshift system used in languages like English, poor things, with their “decayed” verb structures.

English lost a lot of its verb structures because it’s arguably an old creole, born of the Norman invasion of 1066 producing a bastard child from Anglo-Saxon and Norman French called “English”. It is a feature of creoles that they typically lose case endings and other grammatical features, to be replaced by auxiliary words to convey the same meanings. It is also a long-standing feature of creoles that they are seen as inferior, a mish-mash, a miscegenation, and inferior to the languages from which they come even though, within just a generation or two, they move from pidgin to full fledged language. Again, English is no longer seen as inferior because not just one but two major world powers have used it, but is still deplored by some.

I’ll point out that many Indo-European languages still retain complicated verb conjugations and features. English is the exception, not the rule.

Modern Icelandic is just as modern (or not) as any other language currently in use, even if it has changed more slowly than many. That’s a feature of it being geographically and politically isolated for long periods (among other factors, I’m sure). The more contact and interactions with another language(s) the more a language changes, even for some otherwise slowly changing languages. Languages influence each other, borrow words, even borrow sounds from each other (that’s how Xhosa got its clicks - it’s not part of a language family that usually has those sounds, but it was located in an area with languages that do use them and was influenced by them).

English, like most creoles, readily borrows words. Some other languages are less likely to for various reasons, or heavily modify borrowed words (Japanese does this). In some cases, the speakers of a language wish to keep it “pure” and will either coin native words for new things or translate terms from other languages (there’s a fancy term for that I can’t recall at the moment, it’s early while I’m typing this).

I’m sure someone is going to come here and argue English is NOT a creole, but if it isn’t it sure shares some features with creoles.

Nowhere, those are not categories relevant to languages. Kinda like sports are not ranked by colour, or prime numbers are not ranked by antiquity.

I very much doubt English has this distinction.

Come to Germany, most Universities have a Germanistik Fachbereich where they talk about nothing else.

Only in the sense that present-day English speakers can read Shakespeare. Present-day Icelandic speakers don’t try to pronounce the words of the sagas as they read them. They pronounce them in their minds in present-day Icelandic, just as present-day English speakers pronounce passages from Shakespeare in their minds as present-day English. In fact, in both languages, the pronunciation has changed a lot. (Some Americans think that they’re pronouncing passages from Shakespeare in the way that Shakespeare did when they pronounce them in present-day British English. They’re not. Present-day British English is no closer to the English of Shakespeare’s time than present-day American English. They both have changed a lot.)

Also, both present-day Icelandic speakers when reading the sages and present-day English speakers usually read versions with footnotes that help them understand the texts better.

Furthermore, the orthography of both Icelandic and English has changed over time. The orthography refers to what the letters looks like. The spelling sometimes changes too. Icelandic speakers and English-language speakers are not reading books printed in the time of the sagas or Shakespeare. They’re reading new books with present-day orthography and spelling.

Icelandic has changed less over time than English, but it has still changed:

Which is pretty much completely. Yes, of course the language has changed some in the days since the Bard, but not so much that it’s incomprehensible, or even particularly difficult. And keep in mind that Shakespeare is much more recent than the Icelandic sagas.

@Broomstick, you seem to be reading a moral judgement into the OP that isn’t there. He’s saying that English is more modern, in the sense that it has more features that languages tend to gain with time and less features that languages tend to lose with time. He’s not saying that that makes English in any sense “better” than other languages.

No. You can say that because you’re a very good reader who has been reading works written in older English for many years. You also know the plots of many of the plays and have read summaries of them and have read footnotes of them. Ask a mediocre reader who reads a Shakespeare play in high school without ever having read it before or even heard of the play before. They do have a hard time. Here are some passages from King Lear, and these aren’t even the hardest sort to be found in Shakespeare:

This trusty servant
Shall pass between us: ere long you are like to hear,
If you dare venture in your own behalf,
A mistress’s command. Wear this; spare speech;
Decline your head: this kiss, if it durst speak,
Would stretch thy spirits up into the air.

Thou changed and self-cover’d thing, for shame,
Be-monster not thy feature. Were’t my fitness
To let these hands obey my blood,
They are apt enough to dislocate and tear
Thy flesh and bones: howe’er thou art a fiend,
A woman’s shape doth shield thee.

This is practice, Gloucester:
By the law of arms thou wast not bound to answer
An unknown opposite: thou art not vanquish’d,
But cozen’d and beguiled.

FWIW English as a creole is a pretty hotly debated topic in linguistic circles, and there’s no consensus answer on if it is or isn’t. There’s also some linguists that take issue with linguistic classification of creoles, because many of the assumptions about creolization actually haven’t held up to rigorous scrutiny, and the somewhat “flexible” definition of creole languages (mind the term started very specifically to explain “pidgin languages with native speakers” found primarily in the New World due to mixtures of local and European languages) has left a system where it is difficult to really make heads or tails of what’s what.

English, particularly Middle English, has a pretty weird history in many respects. I think that the importance of Old Norse on Old English is often overlooked, even though it may actually be more significant than the influence of Old French [quick note that the Normans actually spoke a language mutually intelligible with Old French, called Old Norman, but this language had much less influence on English because after a couple generations the Plantagenet dynasty came in and they did not speak Norman but “court” French.]

When you try to define a creole, you typically have to define a substrate and a superstrate…the substrate being a language that an “intrusive” language influences, and the superstrate being the intrusive language. Even languages that aren’t creolized can have substratum and superstratum, for example because of English domination of the development and proliferation of internet terminology, there are many languages that use English words for internet terms, in that context English is being “intrusive” on those languages. However there’s actually active efforts to resist this, for example there are language bodies in, for example, French and German, that attempt to develop and promulgate specific French/German words to stop those intrusive words from creeping in. Their success is mixed. For example the French language academy has tried to promote the word courriel for e-mail, because other words in French for email are seen as not being natively French and to have been influenced by English. Adoption and use of this word in actual French speaking countries is low.

Going back to Old Norse/Old English, Old Norse was a superstratum in the Danelaw, for hundreds of years. Additionally, the “Danes” settled faring communities in the Danelaw and there was regular linguistic interaction between Old Norse speakers and Old English speakers. Believe it or not, interaction between Old English and Old French speakers was much less common after the Norman Conquest than was the interaction of Old Norse/Old English. Why? For two reasons–Old French was spoken by the landed nobility, the heirs to the titles and lands seized by William the Conqueror. Their immediate courts spoke Old French. However the vast majority of their functionaries who implemented their rule were native Anglo-Saxons who spoke Old English, and many of those functionaires did not learn or speak Old French. So how did they work for their bosses? There was already a shared language–Latin. Educated persons (often the clergy filled bureaucratic roles in this era) spoke Latin in both Normandy and England, and it served as a convenient common language between the Norman courts and the functionaries and officials who ran day to day life in the Anglo-Saxon world.

However this obviously wasn’t air gapped. Some of the functionaries would over time pick up some Old French and some would even learn it. Also, the Normans weren’t kept in a bubble totally isolated from the Anglo-Saxons, some large land holders remained Anglo-Saxon, and they would have interactions with the Normans. Words spoken by servants also have an effect of eventually sneaking into the master’s lexicon over time as well. But it was definitely a bit of an odd situation.

However the separation of Old Norse/Old English was much less. Some interesting influences from Old Norse are that many words of “common every day life” the Old Norse version replaced the Old English version. For example the word “egg” is derived from Old Norse, not Old French or Old English. Additionally several important conceptional words, like the word “wrong”, the days of the week, “law”, “give”, “take”, “want”. Also importantly the Old Norse third person plural pronouns replaced the Old English–which is unusual to have happen to a language. The words “they, them, their” come from Old Norse, not Old English or Old French.

My non-linguist take is there was basically a process of partial-creolization and partial-Koneization going on for hundreds of years in England. And oddly still, the grammatical simplification of Middle English versus Old English, was actually happening before the influence of the Norman Conquest, and has happened to other languages without a clear superstratum influencing them, which suggests there is a tendency for many languages to simplify grammar over time even without outside influences.

I question if your interpretation of modern - that is, that languages lose certain things over time, and gain certain other things over time - actually hold true. It may be true for some European languages, but is that truly a universal case even in Europe? Some of the Slavic languages have lots and lots verb conjugations still. What about Asian languages, which acquired tones?

I’m not a linguist or an expert, but aren’t all languages spoken today are actually modern languages, because they’re spoken by modern people? “Modern Icelandic” is still a modern language, and so far as I know you can discuss any modern topic in it even if some aspects of the language haven’t changed in a long time.

In addition, aren’t languages similar to animals, in that there’s really no such thing as “modern” or “archaic” languages any more than there are “more evolved” or “less evolved” animals? At least in the sense that there’s nothing inherent to a language that would mark it as “modern” or “archaic” in terms of how it’s organized, spoken, etc., and only its proximity in time to the present day is what would indicate modernityhttps://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-among-the-germanic-languages/949141/9 or not.

Partly true.

In sum, whereas the auxiliary verbs “to have” and “to be” are used in a host of languages, the modal auxiliary verb is used only in the English Language.

The analogy to “less evolved” animals, the so-called “living fossils”, is a pretty good one.

Some creatures are often described as having been “frozen in time” or labeled as “living fossils” - horseshoe crabs, which look pretty much exactly the same as fossil ones dating back 100 million years, or the living coelacanths that were discovered in the Indian Ocean only after fossil coelacanths had been found dating to the Cretaceous Era.

These creatures may have retained nearly identical physical forms to those ancient forebears, but evolution is more than skin deep. When examined from a DNA perspective, the genetic variation among (say) horseshoe crabs is the same as any other living species alive today, meaning there has not been some kind of genetic stasis: they are definitely NOT a relict population kind of unchanged clones from many millennia ago.

Their outward physical form might not have changed, due to being “perfectly suited” to their ecological niche with no competition, but “under the skin” (or carapace) changes would be invisible.

For example, we know that sickle cell anemia in humans is related to a recessive gene related to granting protection from malaria, where having two copies of the gene causes problems, but the benefit of being a one-gene carrier is so great that it is prevalent in malaria-intensive regions of sub-Saharan Africa. Yet the fossil record of bones and teeth would not show this at all.

So there surely have been things like that going on with horseshoe crabs, coelacanths, crocodilians, and other “physically little changed creatures from the age of dinosaurs”, because the world has certainly changed around them, and genetic mutation over time is a given. It just means that those physical forms are so “perfect” for the fairly static niche that one lineage continued to look that way throughout history, even as other descendent branches diverged (possibly to die out).

Same thing with languages like Old Norse vs. Icelandic. The orthography hasn’t changed, but the language surely has - vocabulary, pronunciation, colloquial phrasings, etc. Of course something like the Sagas have been in continuous study so the influence on the living language has also continued, but the point is that orthographical continuity is not the sole metric of language stasis.

Or Classical Chinese and modern Chinese, that’d be another example.

Sorry about the late reply :slight_smile: .

Just to be clear where I got the idea Icelandic is more ‘conservative’:

Icelandic. The North Germanic language of the Icelanders, considered the most conservative of Germanic languages. 

Webster’s New World College Dictionary, THIRD EDITION, Macmillan USA

Oh, and yeah, I can read Shakespeare. But I usually need a little help. Usually a study guide or Cliffsnotes. It does contain obsolete words, i.e., words that we just don’t use anymore. It doesn’t matter how smart you are. Unless you’re a Shakespeare scholar, you just can’t understand it. So I assume Icelanders can read the Sagas, but with a lot of footnotes (is that what you meant :slight_smile: ?).