For those of you not familiar with icelandic, the language changed very little from what the vikings spoke nearly a millenium ago. This wikipedia article is more informative.
Is the importance of being able to read old books and poems in the original language outweighs the advantage of having a less modifiable language? Are there any other practical advantages (other than helping national identity).
Swedish and norwegian were practically identical to icelandic and have changed over centuries. Does it provide any advantage to the swedes and the norwies or their countries?
Or is the question moot because Icelandic has changed in the ways that matter, whatever they are?
What do you think?
It’d be especially interesting to hear scandinavian dopers (even finns ;)) share their conclusion on the matter.
Spoken Icelandic has changed a lot more than the written form would suggest, which is not surprising. But there are two aspects of the language that it make it different wrt change-- the fact that it retains a lot of inflections that other languages lost, and they try to use native words for new technological terms rather than adopt the more common Latin or Greek terms that other languages use. But the thing is, Iceland is a highly literate country and most people speak English as well as Icelandic, and probably one of the other Scandinavian tongues, too.
Languages tend to evolve in order to meet the same communicative needs of people no matter where they live, so I don’t think it’s either good or bad. If it lacked some key element that prevented good communication, it would pick up that element quickly-- communication is just too important to human society not to. It works, like every other language on earth.
I was in Iceland for a long weekend ages ago - it is a beautiful country and I was surprised to learn that even though Icelandic is considered a “dead” language, they had 27 daily newspapers in Icelandic! I am sure that number has dwindled over the years, but they were quite proud of the fact that they kept the language alive. And yes, most people in Iceland also spoke English quite well
I know that German has started incorporating more and more English words into their daily language. When I watch a German television show (friends send me DVD’s occasionally) it seems like an English word creeps into almost every sentence now. While I find it somewhat amusing to hear, it is also depressing to learn they have simply stopped using perfectly good German words and throw in English words whenever possible.
I believe France set up laws years ago to stop this same erosion of their language. Not quite sure how that has worked out.
I only wish our educational system in the US would work as hard to keep English alive - about a third of my college age students can’t write a simple memo iwithout multiple errors.
I remember they wanted to use courriel (short for courrier electronique) as a replacement to email some years ago. I’d say it’s not working very well. Every time I speak to a francophone, i notice new english words cropping up.
I can’t help but wonder if people who attempt to keep their language “pure” do so not out of love for their language but bigotry against what they perceive as dirty foreign influences. English is my first language and you can’t swing a dead cat near it without hitting a word that originated elsewhere. Perhaps that’s because English is some sort of bastard language but I’m not linguist so I’ll leave that to the experts. Likewise Spanish has words that originate from other sources including Arabic.
The best thing about linguistic purism, I suppose, would be making it easier to read texts from the past.
In the case of English and Spanish, the adoption of foreign words has a lot to do with having been ruled by foreigners. Norman French in England and North African/Arabs in Spain. But English is a prolific word borrower and has never (that I know of) had a tradition of keeping out foreign words. Languages with large numbers of native speakers, like English and Spanish, needn’t worry about disappearing altogether. Extinction isn’t likely for Icelandic, but it is a possibility. The country only has about 250,000 people.
I’m a hopeless romantic when it comes to language: To me it’s nice to know that “brazo” means “arm” in the latin languages and that’s why a bracelet is something you wear around your arm and embrace is putting your arms around someone.
If my original language is influenced too much by English, those connections will be lost/forgotten.
The end of civilization as we know it? Absolutely not. A loss of culture? Absolutely yes.
And yet the only reason we have that connection is the English borrowed that term from the a Romance Language-- ie, English was influenced by a different language. So you celebrate something in one language, but then don’t like that very same thing happening in another language. I’m not trying to make a debate point, just trying to understand your thinking as there seems to be a contradiction.
Good point - but on this board I had to make my examples in English to be understood.
In Spanish, “abrazos” means “hugs”. Or rather not, it means “arms” (around you). The moment they stop using the word “abrazos” and start using the word “hugs”, the old connection/explanation is not there anymore.
Whatever - I don’t see how it should change my viewpoint when it comes to “hugs”. (No kidding, I hear it more and more in countries where English is not the native language).
I don’t know what the actual regulations say these days, but boy, is there a lot of English in French magazines. I agree with DMark – there’s something a little dismal about that.
It seeems to me in the case of Iceland that bilingualism (Icelandic and English) is basically a way to manage both desires: to be able to move with the times, and to hang onto the past. It’s maybe a bit dangerous (to Icelandic, not English), but there’s a risk either way.
I agree with you, but doubt that the average person is aware of these relationships between Romance or Latin words and their English counterparts. The average Doper now—that’s a different matter.
I don’t think linguistic purity isn’t a bad thing. “Pure” languages are not necessarily handicapped when it comes to expressing new ideas or forming new words. It’s simply done out of native elements, as was traditionally the case in German and presumably still is in Icelandic. The price English has paid for being such a mongrel and motley tongue includes inherent classism due to the fact that educated discourse consists almost entirely of Latinate vocabulary while everyday speech is still mostly Germanic, the fact that “correct” grammar is so often at odds with the way people actually speak, the almost total loss of ability to form native compounds, and the loss of cultural roots. King Egbert and the Venerable Bede seem almost irrelevent to us native English speakers, because their language is hardly recognizable to us as English.
Heh heh, a double negative in a thread about pure languages. I love it!! I’m not being a jerk here I just thought it was kind of funny.
It seems difficult to create a pure language short of artificial restrictions put in place by the elite to ensure that the language remains pure. If culture A comes into contact with culture B and develops some sort of relationship there there’s going to be an exchange of ideas and probably words. Taco might be a good example. If someone introduces a food foreign to my culture why would I use a word from my language to name it?
I don’t see language purity as inherently bad but I don’t really see it as anything to wish for either.
As someone marrying into an Icelandic family, I can tell you that the language is inextricably tied to their national identity and pride. Anyone who’s been around Icelanders will tell you that they are, in general, fiercely proud of their heritage and their country’s achievements. Icelanders do have a reputation for xenophobia, and it is deserved to a degree. They tend to view borrowed words with distaste, though the younger generation has seen a lot of English creeping in. Luckily, nearly everything is conducted in Icelandic, so they only practice their English amongst friends or with tourists. From what my Mother-in Law says, anyone who bothers to learn the language is considered an honorary Icelander, and is accorded a deal of respect when they travel there.
I’m not being a jerk here I just thought it was kind of funny.