Bullshit. People claim to be something they’re not all the time. And we’re perfectly entitled to call them on it.
Okay. I don’t believe you’re really a woman. I don’t think you act like a woman – real women don’t swear.
:dubious:
Sounds ridiculous, right?
Based on kimera’s research, cursory as it might be, I think it safe to say that the truth is closer to your position than mine. So, if the situation should arise, it wold look to avoid the term. That said, I think her research also shows that the word is anywhere near as offensive as cunt or nigger. (Not ot imply that you hold that position.)
“Real” women also don’t poop. Or so I’ve been told.
I guess that my women are defective, since many of them can curse like crazy. “Fuck” seems to be a major Power Femme Curse Word. Saying fuck seems to make’em feel all powerful and such…
EE clarified our exchange, and I’m satisified with it.
I do believe that precise use of terminology trumps an individuals needs for self-identification at times, at least for clarity. I also concede that there are times and places and people where “Tranny” is indeed a slur. “Tranny” is also frequently an imprecise term applying to both transsexuals and transvestites, as well as sometimes referring specifically to drag queens.
It makes sense to have clear terms that classify individual subgroups of the GBLT community.
We now seem to have replicated the original thread in a new fora. Remarkable.
Yeah, but it doesn’t come across as offensive at all. Just stupid. So I don’t see where it proves your point.
You don’t think it’s offensive to suggest that real women don’t swear?
well yeah, because not swearing isn’t the defining characteristic of being a woman. If one thought that the defining characteristic of a transexual was either having gone through a sex change, or preparing to go through one, and one believed that Alexis was not planning to go through with one, then claiming that she’s not a transexual would be logical.
Last week, a 22 year old transsexual girl was shot in the back. Her friend came into one of the forums I posted a poll in and asked for help in finding groups that would help her parents pay for her funeral. Her friend said that she was killed because of her transgendered status. This last friday a girl from one of the irc channels I was in was beaten by a guy after he found out that she was transgendered. Sometimes people insist on using “he” even after the person has kindly asked to be calld “she,” sometimes people keep calling a ftm a “woman” and tell her that she will always be defined by her chromosomes. That’s anti-trans behavior.
You know, there is a huge argument within the trans community about who is really trans. Some transwomen refuse to accept non-ops. If they don’t want to consider them women, then whatever, that’s their problem. I do have a problem when they start calling them freaks, try to ban them, or continually insist that they aren’t women. Similarly, I don’t have a problem when people question the gender identities of people who are really out there/crazy. Or even when they simply can’t understand transsexuals. I have a lot of friends who are anti-gay/trans. As long as my friends don’t vote in laws that impact them, don’t engage in bashing and use the correct pronouns, I’m fine with it.
Miss Alexis has been widely discussed in the transgendered community and many of them made similar comments to the ones made here. For example, here is the transgendered livejournal community’s take on her. Most of the other discussions I’ve seen ended up along the same lines with about half the people saying that they didn’t accept her and half of them saying that we should respect her anyway.
here’s what was said in the other thread:
You’ll note that both of them referred to her as she. They didn’t say that she wasn’t a woman or call her a man, they just said that it was hard to accept her as a woman. I don’t have any problems with that at all.
No, I don’t mean to imply that at all. I’ve never seen Miss Alexis either on the show or in her drag queen state. I always give people the benefit of the doubt, so I will accept what she identifies as. I’m just saying that it is possible to challenge someone’s gender identity and not be anti-trans.
Is Alexis really transsexual? I don’t know, but you don’t know either. Maybe even she doesn’t know yet. If anyone was saying “man” “he” or insisting that she wasn’t trans, then I would be annoyed. As Guin noted, there are many people who pretend to be something they aren’t. (Not that I think she’s pretending, if anything she’s probably just confused) We had a whole incident here where an individual claimed to be a transsexual Korean woman married to a hot Korean girl. It turned out he was really a single white dude.
Here is an interesting article written by a person who detransitioned. He explains some of the reasons why he thought he was trans.
Updated poll results:
1 Board - 25 votes:It’s offensive (48%), I use it (16%),I don’t like it (24%), I don’t car either way (12%).
2nd Board - 19 votes:It’s offensive (31.6%),I use it (26.3%),I don’t like it (26.3%), I don’t care either way (15.8)
kimera, trans people aren’t murdered in a vacuum. Of course it’s not offensive to the level of murder. Is that what you want me to say? Do you think that stuff just sort of happens, or do you understand that a lot of things, big and small, lead up to it?
Yes, there are people even in the trans community who think they’re the bouncers at the door to Club Trans. I disagree with those people, obviously. Alexis has stated that she is transgendered, so I don’t know why you’re claiming nobody knows. Until she states otherwise, that is how I will think of her and refer to her. I believe to do otherwise is rude, and usually stems from an anti-trans bias, when it comes from outside the trans community. “Those people” are not “really” women and men unless they pass the speaker’s rigorous standards. When it comes from within, well, I said above what I think of that.
I don’t think we’re going to agree about this. You think it’s okay to use a pronoun for someone other than the one they’ve requested be used. I don’t. You think it’s okay to announce that somebody who says they are transgender isn’t really. I don’t. You think it’s okay to say who is and is not a “real woman”, and I don’t. I don’t see us reconciling this any time soon.
I do understand that, I just don’t think that either of those posters were hate-filled.
No one here knows if she really is. As I said, not everyone who claims to be trans actually is.
Perhaps my words were unclear, but I don’t think it is okay to use a pronoun other than the one requested unless it can be demonstrated that the person is psychotic. I refuse to call the pedo “she” because I feel that doing so invalidates other people’s experiences. If someone insisted on calling a trans person by their non-preferred pronoun then I would get in their face about it. If they insisted on doing it in reference to my ex-girlfriend then I would punch them if I thought they did it maliciously.
As for the other parts, no, I don’t see us reconciling.
But not everyone who claims to be anything actually is. This is the heart of our dispute. I don’t understand why you think trans people should be under special scrutiny. You suggest it’s for the good of the community, but why? Trans people are now obligated to be the gender cops they’ve been on the run from all their lives? I honestly don’t understand your position, so I’m not trying to argue with it now. I’m just trying to explain why I find it so confusing.
Baloney. I was born gay. You’re saying I wasn’t really? Most people are born straight. You saying they weren’t really?
Exactly. I thought it was a non sequitur.
No. kimera is. Take it up with her.
Oh, sorry, she’s actually saying that trans people require special scrutiny when they claim to be trans. Maybe she doesn’t apply that to gay people too, I don’t know, she hasn’t explained it.
Statement A: Alexis Arquette is not a real woman because she is [too loud, a drama queen, psychotic, etc].
Statement B: Guin is not a real woman because she [swears, is a virgin, disagrees with me, etc].
Does it make sense now?
Hey lev, are you going to own up for Pitting me for something I not only didn’t do, I actually did the opposite of, btw?
No, because nobody made Statement A.
Are you fucking kidding? We’re right now arguing, me and kimera, over whether it’s okay to say Alexis is not trans. If she is not trans, she is not a woman. Jesus!