Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer... again!

In My Humble Opinion
21

Hey, I can’t let the E-D go down without a fight. So here I go, looking at the Technical Manual for the 1701-D.

Phasers- Let’s see, each individual emitter on the E-D can direct 5.1 megawatts of power. There are 12 such structures on the ship (with the groups in Saucer Dorsal and ventral sides, the Battle Section with a ventral array and an aft array, and both nacelles having arrays). Looking at the breakdowns, the most it could fire at one time into one target area would be about 12 arrays (with a side long shot)…so about 60 megawatts converging onto a point about 2 X 3 meters for maximum of about 245 seconds of continuous fire before overheating problems would cause significant loss of phaser systems.

However, phaser disperse rapidly in warp and or deflector fields… so the range would be close. Big ouch once the shields go down on the E-D. So I would say that given the 360 degree nature of all the phaser emmitters, they would be used to pop all of the fighters and auxilary craft into oblivion.

Photon Torpedoes- Looong range on these suckers. 3,500,000 kilometers for midsize tactical yield (apparently, the closer you are to the firing vessal, the bigger the BOOM). Explosive yield is around 1x10^3 megajoules. These torps are supposedly the second generation and are much higher yield than any employed previously. (shrug)

Numbers of torpedoes on board: about 200 that can be used as weapons (60 odd more for probe use and such). They can be fired from the front and rear launchers in groups of 10, with a reload rate of about 2 seconds for each group of four. So…in less than 2 minutes the E-D could shoot off all 200 of its torpedoes, with a big initial wollop of 20 torps at once. Even an ISD would wince at that.

Shields- Such a sticky point. Hmmm…says that battle shields can dissipate energy at the rate of 7.3x10^5 kW per 170 milliseconds with 65% of the shield still working after 24 hours of continuous use. Or, the E-D can take its own phaser barrage for about 3-4 hours before the shields could no longer take it.

As for fighters and such bouncing off of it, they would. But the way the manual explains it, the fighter would be intact and the pilot a bit confused as to how the E-D teleported away (the shields make use of micro-warps to help move matter, so it appears to them that the E-D teleported).
So my opinion: The E-D would analyze how to stop the ISD in space…Get beat-up using phasers to try and slowdown the armored behemoth that the ISD is…then whack the hell out of the ISD with torpedoes.

Lots of explosions, pretty special fx’s, and a draw. The ISD is immobilized, but the E-D won’t be able to get in close enough to finish it and any boarding parties transported over would be slaughtered.

Now a funnier scenario dawns with the approach of a borg cube…

22

I think the Star Destroyer wins, by a single volley.

But in the Special Edition of the fight, the Enterprise shoots first.

23

this is purely what I can remember, and take it at the value it may be worth…

I recall watching star trek once – the Enterprise was approached by a ship and Warf commented that the ship used lasers and dismissed them as a threat…How are the lasers in the SW universe different?

24

The difference is that in SW, they’re not really lasers. Or at least, not entirely. They’re blasters, which combine a short laser pulse (for armor piercing) and a packet of plasma (for the kinetic and explosive effects). Remember the tibanna gas that was mined at Cloud City on Bespin? That’s one of the gases that is used as ammunition.

25

Well, for one thing, they don’t travel at the speed of light…

26

One of the most amusing weaknesses of their series. Anyhoo I see 2 possibilities.

I think 2 things could make the fight go to the ISD. The shorter the battle the better for the ISD and the closer the combatants the better for the ISD. And I feel the E-D could be completely destroyed.

If they start off too far away I think the E-D has the ability to dodge and choose opportune moments to fire. Since I tend to feel the E-D could outmanouver the ISD’s shots as well as its TIEs. Maybe if it had several squandrons of TIE-Adv then they might be able to put the scare into the E-D. Either way I see this senario ending in a draw with which ever one is put on the defensive leaping out of there.

Now I’d like to see what would happen if you revved each of them up to, oh let’s say 100kps, and rammed them into each other. Something which reminds me of childhood and matchbox cars. sigh.

27

What’s being overlooked here is that both ships are still constrained by the narrative conventions of their individual universes. And a constant in both universes is that, despite being outgunned, outnumbered, and outclassed in every way imaginable, the good guys always find a way to win. In other words, the Enterprise wins by virtue of being heroes.

Which sucks.

On the other hand, that’s just in the movies/TV shows. This is a fan debate, where the most important factor isn’t sub-space speed, number of weapon hard-points, or torpedo payload: it’s coolness. Using this criteria, the Enterprise D would lose out to Luke’s landspeeder.

28

I think that thoughts about how the Enterprise always negotiates and doesn’t resort to violence until later can be disregarded. If people remember the TNG episode “Yesterday’s Enterprise,” you’ll recall that the Enterprise was on a war footing, and didn’t do any pussyfooting around when the Klingon ships showed up. If the two ships (Enterprise and ISD) had never met before, I also doubt that the Imperials would open fire instantly. Even the Empire doesn’t destroy everything randomly – they’d want to assess capabilities at the least. Either way, it’ll more-or-less be on an even footing in the beginning.

Remember that the targeting systems of the Enterprise are also a lot more advanced. While the opening scene of “New Hope” was unforgettable, it was marked by lots of laser blasts missing a frigate extremely close to it, moving on a paralell course. The Enterprise is larger than a frigate, but I don’t think that it would (relatively) park itself under the bow guns of an ISD, either. Also, a short point… why doesn’t anyone ever think of the Enterprise tractor beam? Just because it’s used for dragging asteroids and cargo ships around doesn’t mean it can’t be used in a combat situation. TIE fighters coming at you? Swat em away with the tractor beam… the modern version of a hammer in this case.

Random thought: They’ve probably been done before, but other ST-SW matchoffs might be fun. Borg Cube vs. Death Star (or SSD, perhaps). Runabout vs. X-Wing. Or how about fleet vs. fleet? Or my favorite, combined Empire and Rebel forces vs. Federation, Klingon, and Romulan forces. Adding the Borg in on that last one would make it too unbalanced, unfortunately.

-Psi Cop (Anyone want to debate an ISD vs. a Vorlon cruiser?)

29

Miller…

Well, that’s a subjective conclusion, isn’t it? In my opinion, ANYBODY who tries to blow up the Enterprise is a hero. :smiley:

Psi Cop…

In that timeline, the Federation and the Klingons were at war with each other. In the E-D vs. ISD encounter, it’d be a case of one unknown ship encountering another.

Hardly. Federation phasers miss a helluva lot (as a plot gimmick), even when their target is moving in a straight line at relatively slow speed.

They were trying to disable the ship, not destroy it, and as such would be trying to achieve glancing shots as opposed to direct hits. Further, since they didn’t want to Death Star plans to be erased (if they were erased, they’d never know whether or not the Tantive IV actually had them), they didn’t use ion cannons.

Because it wouldn’t be as useful. It’d do nothing against the Star Destroyer, and the TIE fighters are more easily dealt with through a phaser blast.

30

Alright some more thoughts on my hypothetical hit and run scenario. One of the key factors in my reasoning is that FTL travel is pretty much a defensive trump card. In warp/hyperspace neither ship can interfere with the other, right?

So…
Can the E-D scan for ships in normal space while going warp? Can an ISD scan during a hyper jump?

How many consecutive times can the E-D accelerate to warp? How many consecutive jumps can an ISD make? How quickly can these be done (say time expired from detection of incoming TIEs/photon torpedoes to getting the heck out of there).

I’m assuming that in order to stay in the same area the E-D can spend a lot more time at warp (driving in circles) than the ISD can (can you turn in hyperspace? a longer jump would move them to another corner of the galaxy).

Spoofe said:

I don’t think this scenario would lead to a ship-to-ship confrontation. I think it would play out with a couple cordial-but-cautious hails, an exchange of diplomatic parties and the confiscation of the E-D when it turns out the Imperial diplomats were elite commandos.

31

Considering that the ISD are the bad guys, wouldn’t it make more sense to debate a borg cube vs a imperial star destroyer?

Or even the millenium falcon vs the Enterprise.

32

Well, my take on it has always been simple. 2 factors trip the scales into a relatively easy victory for the E-D.

#1.E-D can fight at warp, which the ISD would be incapapble of compehending or defending against. From their POV, phasers and photon torps would be appearing out of nowhere (warp space). It is very hard to defend against an attack when you have no idea from which direcion the attack is coming. The ISD would prolly be able to retreat via hyperdrive, but it would have no method of engaging a target moving at warp speed. Constant warp speed flybys would allow the E-D to remain immune from any ISD attacks, and would eventually reduce the ISD to scrap.

#2. I don’t buy the SW apologists claims that the ISD would be immune to transporters. ST lore has repeatedly proven that transporters operate on a frequency that must be specifically targeted for defense. ST universe ships do this as a matter of course, but the ISD would never have seen anything like it, and thus would not be prepared to defend against them. Remember too that transporters can be used at warp speed. A warp speed flyby beaming a photon torpedo into the ISD’s engine room would undoubtedly cause the ISD to explode like an overripe tomato.

These two factors make an E-D victory pretty much a given. If you negate them…say Picard is 1/2 way through his “We represent a federation of peaceful beings” speech when the ISD says “We don’t” and opens fire from point blank range…yea, in that case E-D would be toast. Remember that this only works the 1st few times, however. As soon as the Federation realizes it’s at war, it’s ships would begin attacking the Empire’s ships from warp space and it would be all over but the surrender ceromony.

33

Unless, of course, the ISD happened to have an Interdictor Cruiser nearby…could an Interdictor affect a warp drive?

Or Grand Admiral Thrawn aboard…:smiley:

34

Jeu_D’esprit’s comment on how ST shields work is interesting. ISD shields are almost like physical armor: fighters that hit them explode. That’s why this whole argument about transporters needing specific shielding doesn’t make sense. To all appearances, the only thing allowed through an ISD shield is electromagnetic radiation of specific visible and communications frequencies, below a certain energy threshold. Why should we assume that SW shields, obviously operating on a different principle than ST shields, should have the same weaknesses?

Additionally, why should warp speed be any more confusing to an ISD crew than hyperdrive? Sure, the Enterprise can zip around, but the ISD has the ability to ‘teleport’ from place to place. If they can detect ships in hyperspace, why not in warp? Why not simply postulate some fundamental principle beyond both methods of FTL transit, which would leave both sides fully aware of whatever tricks the other was using?

When in Star Trek has this whole attacking and targeting at warp speeds been used?

I still think the ISD wins, hands down. It has entire batteries of powerful weapons, bays full of fighters that can also inflict damage on capital ships, and a trained crew ready for a fight. They drop out of hyperspace right on top of the Enterprise, slap a tractor beam on, rough 'er up with a few turbolaser volleys, and then launch the boarding shuttles.

Y’know, I feel really silly debating which figment of someone else’s imagination could beat the figment of an entirely different persons imagination. That doesn’t, however, mean that I’m going to stop. :smiley:

35

I’m disgusted that anyone would side on the series that resulted in (dear God) Episode I.

Frankly, the only fitting way to settle this dispute would be to put Anakin Skywalker and Wesley Crusher in a closed room and let 'em fight it out
[sub]and hope they kill each other…

…and put Queen Amadala and myself in a closed room together. Yowza![/sub]

36

I’m curious as to why you say that the Enterprise tractor beam wouldn’t do anything. Again citing an episode, “Deja Q,” the Enterprise uses the tractor beam to shove around a very large moon. Admittedly they used a warp field trick to reduce the subjective mass of the moon, but it still weighed hundreds of millions of tons. If the Calamaraine (hostile aliens) hadn’t chosen that moment to attack (therefore requiring the beam to be shut off to maneuver away), they would have shoved it right back into a proper orbit.

If it was the first meeting of the two ships, I doubt either one would attack right away, anyway. Even the Imperials would be wondering what to make of this new ship that used totally different systems. I doubt they’d attack instantly.

Somone mentioned a curiosity as to what would happen if the two rammed each other… total destruction of both, most likely. Even if the sheer amount of tonnage slamming into each other didn’t do it, the warp core breach of the Enterprise and the reactor failure of the ISD would tear up both ships.

Sterra, I think that a Borg Cube vs. an ISD would be an easy win for the Borg. It’s 2.5 km per side, making it much more massive than an ISD. It has its own shields, and the hull regenerates. It can operate with full efficiency even with 78% damage (reference “The Best of Both Worlds”). Borg can beam through shields of any sort and take over a command center. They adapt to weapons – not a chance the ISD would survive if the Borg wanted it dead. Of course, since they are the Borg, they might just carve out a section of ISD hull to examine and go back to ignoring it.

-Psi Cop

37

Weirddave (how’d I know you’d be showing up? :D)…

Ah, ah, ah… the only times we’ve ever seen it fight at warp speeds was when it was targeting other vessels that were also in warp. We have NEVER seen it fire, from warp, at a vessel that was not in warp. The best it can do (theoretically) is the warp strafe: Drop out of warp, fire, jump back into warp.

Not true. Dozens of types of natural phenomena have been shown to successfully block transporters. Additionally, if transporters truly did work on a frequency basis (as ST shields, missiles, and phasers do), then Starfleet would be able to match frequencies with their own shields (as they can with phasers and missiles) to transport through them. They are unable to do this… they need to drop their own shields before they can activate the transporter. Conclusion? Transporters are easy to disrupt.

Furthermore, SW shields are described as follows: “A force field that drives back solid objects or absorbs energy, this shield protects everything under it. Ray shielding staves off energy such as radiation and blaster bolts; particle shielding repulses matter.” SW shields are clearly designed to repel all sorts of exotic energy signatures and matter. We have no reason to believe that they can only protect against transporter streams if they are specially designed to do so. Using that line of logic, I can state that ST shields would not be able to defend against turbolaser fire (as they aren’t lasers), because ST has never encountered them before.

Guinastasia…

I don’t think so. Warp travel hasn’t really been shown to be as affected by gravity wells.

Lazlo…

Well, I’m disgusted that anyone would side on the series that resulted in (dear God) Voyager. So I guess we’re equally disgusted, eh? Now let’s pretend that both of those never happened… (midichlorians… ::shudder::…)

Psi Cop…

Well, it’s not that “it wouldn’t do anything”, it’s just that phasers would be better for taking out TIE’s. And using it against a Star Destroyer… well, that’s just stupid, as it would result in the Enterprise getting “stuck to” the ISD, making it more vulnerable.

That moon also didn’t have insanely power engines capable of expelling more power than most civilizations…

Well, I agree wholeheartedly. But, well, if everyone was reasonable, we wouldn’t have a debate, would we?

I’m assuming, based on previous histories (on the sides of both crews), that the Feds would be a lot more passive and unwilling to fully commit to battle, while the Imperials wouldn’t have too many qualms about opening fire on another vessel (perhaps they get annoyed by Picard’s crap about “the Prime directive” and “Starfleet utopia” or somesuch).

Most likely, if the Enterprise got up to enough speed. However, if they don’t accelerate enough, I’m betting that the ISD shields would hold up, while the severe jolt would pump enough feedback into the E-D that could cause a warp core breach (a la “Cause and Effect” again). If the ISD gets far enough away before the core totally blows, it’d survive.

Oh, and psst… a Borg cube is 3 kilometers on a side.

Ah, ah… not ANY sort. It was said in that episode that the Borg matched with their shield frequencies to slip in. Considering that the Feds soon learned to counter this ability (by First Contact, anyway), I don’t see why it’s a given that they can slip through “any sort” of shield.

Again, not any type of weapon: They’re pretty vulnerable to physical projectiles (again: ST: First Contact). Further, we’ve never seen them able to adapt to starship-scale weaponry, so it’s reasonable to assume that there’s a certain point where higher energy weapons no longer allow for adaptability.

You kiddin’? They’d LOVE to get their hands on the entire ISD. Hyperdrive alone would make the entire Collective far more powerful.

On the other hand, the Borg might find a sense of brotherhood when they run into some of the stormtroopers…

38

hah, you puny fools, arguing between your “star wars” and your “star trek”…

just give me the “deathstalker” universe’s ESS Dauntless and both the Enterprise and whatever Star Destroyer you pick (perhaps even the Eclipse!) would be no more than twisted wreckage.
force screens that degenerate any matter that collides with them and uses it to power the shields, and beyond that the strength to absorb the same planet-scorching punishment it puts out; it also has Espers (E.S.P.-ers/ people with one special psychic power), and no shield is stopping the old “pop the bridge crew’s heads with a telekinetic psystorm” shimmy-shake.
and, if you want to really make it unfair, put the space faring castle the last standing into play. it’s a giant gothic castle, with a stardrive and incredible tech inside. it is protected by a force field that can (and has!) absorbed punishment that would vaporize jupiter. it’s disrupter cannon vomit suns in minutes. the thing is powered by a dimensional rift to a fledgling universe, and it’s barely understood ancient technologies and devices controlling wormholes make it a damn sight bigger inside than it appears to be outside, to orders of magnitude.
really, just try and match em.

39

You wanna start bringing in the REALLY big guns, Saeph? There’re forces that would turn the “Deathstalker” universe into mincemeat (with a side order of fries) in less time than it takes for an ant to pee.

The reason I stick with such “lowly” series like SW and ST is, well… 1. When you start dealing with races that can eliminate the universe with ease, it starts getting too ludicrous even for my tastes, and 2. it’s nice to see some sort of limitation in place. Otherwise, you’re just constantly going, “What the hell…?” when you come across a passage that describes seventeen galaxies being destroyed by some random guy’s handgun.

40

ok… i’m sorry. erase my previous post from your minds; it was really too late (or really too early, depending on your point of view) for me to do any sort thinking. i’ve already smacked myself in the head for posting something as stupid as that was. my judgement is decayed at four in the morning.

however, could i use one of the more common-level ships; you know, instead of the flagship? those are comparable in tech level, but in a different direction. please? i just read all the books and i so want to see how they stack up in other’s minds.

i’ll switch to the ESS Dark Wind, if that’s ok. it’s not a supership, just a regular old [sym]l[/sym] class starcruiser, with five hundred others just like it in the imperial navy. it has a few heavy retrofits that put it on more of an even footing, but it’s nowhere near invincible.