After reading Quicksilver’s thread with some interest, I had a couple questions and, in light of the excellent answers he got, thought this might be a good place to ask them.
Say I was interested in attending an Episcopal service, mostly out of curiosity. How can I locate an Episcopal church that isn’t off the evangelical hellfire and brimstone school of thought (I’ve been exposed to enough of that through my father…)? I live in a suburb of Dallas, Texas. From what I’ve read of the gay bishop story, lots of the Episcopal churches around here strongly objected/suffered the greatest loss of members/talked about a schism. How do I find a congregation that’s not in that group? I checked, and there are an awful lot of Episcopal churches around here. I gather it’s a relatively heterogenous group, and I’m hoping there’s a more tactful way to identify the congregations I might be interested in then calling them up and asking whoever answers: “Homosexuals, feminists, and teletubbies are going to cause the downfall of American civilization. Do you agree or disagree?”
Look up “Episcopal” under “Churches” in the Yellow Pages (the full name of the denomination is “Protestant Episcopal Church in the USA” but “Episcopal” would probably do it) and call, ask to speak to the pastor (other titles are “Father”,
“Priest” or “Rector”). Then tell him (or her, so “Father” might not be appropriate S) that you’re interested in visiting the church but wasn’t fully familiar with the Episcopal church & could he/she tell you about the church & what to expect. Even most conservative Episcopalians aren’t Hellfire & Brimstone types, anyway.
Now, if the church name has “Anglican” in it or is “Reformed Episcopal”, you have a conservative church that has split from the main US Episcopal church (churches that call themselves “Anglican” in the US are not part of the World Anglican Communion, only the Episcopal Church is the official Anglican church in the US so far, that may change soon.)
Finding them wasn’t a problem–their US website had a directory that worked very well. Too well: the number of churches it returned for the Dallas area was fairly overwhelming.
And knowing what to expect would get information on the congregations attitude towards some of the more divisive issues? I’m not asking rhetorically–this isn’t a kind of inquiry I’m familiar with, and there seem to be some conventions guiding how a church describes itself. For example, I’ve noticed that at least one of the local Episcopalian churches describes itself as “welcoming.” For a Unitarian church, this would seem to identify it has gay-friendly–is this recognized by other sects?
I’m not so much interested in generic information on Episcopalianism, but rather how to ascertain the attidudes held by the different local congregations. I read one article where a local Episcopalian (not Anglican or “Reformed”) church lost something like a quarter of its membership over the nomation of Robinson. Based on that, and other things I’ve read, the Episcopalian church strikes me as having a relatively diverse range of views (this is partly what makes it interesting).
Ditto on calling a church or few on your list. Rather than getting bogged down in asking a bunch of potentially uncomfortable procedural questions, I recommend that you merely state that you’re curious about the Episcopal church but know that you’d be more comfortable in a more liberal parish than in a conservative or “orthodox” one. Then ask the rector to recommend two or three liberal parishes. Nine times out of ten, the rector would rather see you in a church than sitting on the sidelines, so he/she will likely give you a recommendation.
You can then call those particular parishes and ask more detailed questions.
I’d recommend going to a service and listening to the sermon to see what it’s like. Whatever source you’re using to find out time and locations, should have the type of service as well. It it’s a routine “Holy Eucharist”, the most common type of service in the Episcopal churches I’ve attended at the United States, the service will go in this order:
[ul][li]Greeting[/li][li]Lessons[/li][li]Sermon[/li][li]Nicene Creed (a statement of beliefs dating to the early days of the church[/li][li]Confession of Sin (done en masse reading from the prayer book. I can e-mail you the text, if you like)[/li][li]Peace (people greet one another and shake hands or hug)[/li][li]Announcements[/li][li]Eucharist[/li][li]Dismissal[/ul][/li]If you sit at the back, you can slip out during the Peace without being too noticeable or causing too much of a commotion.
The Bishop of my Diocese is leading the revolt against Bishop Robinson’s ordination and is staunchly anti-homosexual; my church is leading the opposition to him. As a result, one of my priests may be able to recommend a church in your part of Texas which shares your views. Let me know by Sunday morning if you want me to check. I think Polycarp may also have a useful link or two.
I’d also hang out before or after a service and listen to what people in the congregation are saying. As you may have guessed, it’s rather a hot topic on all levels right now.
You know, my assumptions about Episcopalianism in the US is you folks still do the fancy vestments and incense thing. The whole High Church thing. It was never something that scared me off, being used to it from the Mother Church, and I can’t say my ELCA church has the plainest services around, but I was curious if you still did that stuff.
BTW, the last time I was in my wife’s old Methodist church the minister was in a chasuble and was swingin’ a censor. I was shocked, but had long suspected that particular congregation was a bunch of Episcopalian wannabes.
The Episcopal Church that I have attended has become a Cathedral (the main church of a large area) but it seems to be much less formal than it used to be. I don’t see as much genuflecting, bowing to the cross and making the sign of the cross. And when I first became an Episcopalian, women always covered their heads. The changes have come over a forty year period and largely began with the adoption of a new Book of Common Prayer in the late 1960’s, I think.
I have never known a hellfire and brimstone Episcopal Church. That’s just not part of the teachings. I have seen churches with politically conservative congregations and politically liberal ministers. That made for an interesting time! Congregations themselves can be quite diverse, with the ministers and the members of the vestry setting the tone.
This would certainly be an interesting time to observe and dynamics!
Main contents page of the Book of Common Prayer, from which Episcopal worship services are taken. The Rite II (modern language) Eucharist service, the one you’re almost certain to run into as a Sunday morning worship service when choosing an Episcopal Church at random to attend.
“An Outline of the Faith”, which comes as close as Episcopalians choose to do so to outlining our doctrinal beliefs.
the small episcopal church that sunflower and i have joined (thank you polycarp and siege) has a pretty diverse but friendly group of parishoners. with four services to choose from, though everyone seems to get along just fine.
there is a rite II service on saturday evening, a rite I service early sunday morning, a contemporary service mid morning and a rite II with full choir late morning.
the contemporary service (the one we attend) is rather relaxed. there is a small band, and everyone really enjoys the music as well as the service.
we attended a full on service last saturday when the bishop came to ordain our new deacon. the full choir, the bell choir and all of the ceremonial pomp and circumstance. it was lovely.
later, the bishop joined us at our table at the reception. he had never met us, so he wanted to get a chance to talk to us.
so far, our experiences as new episcopalians have been more than positive
You might look at St. Michael and All Angels Episcopal, which is in Dallas. I have heard it is a large congregation. I attend at Grace Episcopal, here in Topeka, Kansas, and the new bishop of our diocese. Bishop Dean Wolfe, came to us from St. Michaels. Bishop Wolfe seems to be a fine man, although I don’t really know him well. He suceeds a bishop who was very open and affirming, and who even counter picketed against Fred Phelps. Bishop Wolfe may not be like that, but I surmise that he would not have been selected if he had been radically different, in either direction, from the former bishop. However, that’s my opinion, I could be wrong.
There is also the following link that may be of use. St. Michaels is listed among the Episcopal congregations appearing there.
Baker wrote:
" He suceeds a bishop who was very open and affirming, and who even counter picketed against Fred Phelps."
My hat (or miter) goes off to him! I’ve been to Phelps’ website, and he is just a hair shy of full-blown bat-sh*t crazy.
My parents lived about half an hour north of Fort Worth (Trophy Club) for two years. One of those years I was there for Christmas, and went to their church (I forget the name). It was pretty conservative.
All of the advice here is good. Don’t be afraid to ask questions; we don’t bite. FWIW, I’m a cradle Episcopalian, member of the vestry, LEM, former Postulant, etc ad nauseum.
Thanks to everyone who offered advice–it was appreciated.
I went to a smaller (maybe 150 people max at the service: I’m only assuming that’s on the small side) Episcopal church this morning. Seeing as a majority of the couples were same-sex, and the (pastor? rector? Female father?) made a slight joke about conservatives in the sermon, I’d say the “liberal” bit was satisfied. And then some.
It was very interesting–parts of it reminded me of the Methodist church I went to growing up. The service had a rythm to it that seemed to make the interaction between the clergy and the congregation strangely intimate. The emphasis on quite, kneeling prayer struck me as dignified and sincere: a very positive contrast to the whole “grovel on the floor with your hands swaying in the air as a ‘Christian rock’ band sings about loving Jesus” schtick at my dad’s non-denominational evangelical fundie church.
A question: at the coffee reception thing afterwards, it seemed like most of the people I spoke to assumed I was coming from an Episcopalian background. Are new parishioners from a non-Episcopalian background uncommon?
i have just been going to the episcopal church since easter. shortly after we got there, the person who wrote the column in the monthly newsletter introducing the new parishoners moved to florida and retired. i took over the column.
most of the new parishoners i have interviewed have come to us from the roman catholic church. our church is pretty small (there were 85 people at the contemporary service this morning) and we have purposely not taken a stand on the current argument over bishop robinson, so moderate would describe us rather than conservative or liberal.
The rythmn of the liturgy is one of the reasons I joined the Episcopal church. I grew up in another denomination, Lutheran, that has a strong liturgical background, and when I(it’s too long to post why here) went looking for another church I naturally gravitated towards the Episcopalians.
In our congregation I’d say nearly half are not “cradle” Episcopalians. Heck, the new bishop I mentioned was born into the Church of the Brethren, and started off his ministerial career with them, being licensed to preach at 16. Our new dean(a cathedral’s senior priest) was born a Southern Baptist, and the previous dean was a Methodist until he was 22. I imagine it varies from congregation to congregation, but that’s how it is in ours.
If the priest was a woman she would be referred to as “Mother”, not “Father”. One of our priests for a while was a Mother Helen. When she got married the bishop officiated, and there was a Eucharist during the service, which she and her new husband served at. Probably will be the only time I receive the elements from a woman in a wedding dress! The title rector refers to the priest, or senior priest, in a regular parish church, but you would actually call them Mother or Father ******
Metacom, Longhair, I have a question for you. You see, a few years ago, my bishop, whose opposition to Bishop Robinson and homosexuals I’ve already mentioned, started a “1-1-3” initiative in which he said that if 1 person would make 1 convert to Episcopalianism every 3 years, we’d triple the size of the church. My question to you and your spouses is, given your views on homosexuality, can I claim one of you?! And tell my bishop?
OK, fine. I have an evil streak. A lot of 'Piscys do.
Metacom, I suspect the number of cradle versus converted Episcopalians varies by congregation. We’re not into the “run out and make converts of everyone” mentality much, despite that initiative. In fact, as noted, we’re rather low-key in general. When I was growing up, most people in my church were cradle Episcopalians, but we were also about ha;f English immigrants. I’m less sure of what the mix is now. Certainly we’re aware that one of our draws is that we do combine elements of Protestantism and Catholicism and one joke I’ve heard is that a good Episcopal family is what results when a Catholic marries a Baptist.
I’m glad you liked the service. A lot of what you mentioned is what appeals to me. For all my talk here, the core of my relationship with God is very quiet and personal. Within the Episcopal Church, I can kneel quietly and pray at a few points in the service and it is taken as normal and appropriate.
Being a cradle Episcopalian myself, I’m beginning to see myself more and more in the minority. Not that there’s anything wrong with that… In my church, we have quite a few Southern Baptist converts, so we keep things pretty “low.”
I’m really glad to see new people discovering the Episcopal Church. I started attending about four years ago and fell in love with it – the liturgy, the comtemplative worship, and the people. As I said a few months ago in a GD thread, I think the one positive outcome of all the controversey has been to attract new people to the church who might otherwise never enter the doors for fear of being unwelcome.
I’d like to dispel a few myths about the conservative/orthodox Episcopalians, however:
They preach fire and brimstone
No, they don’t. I’ve been attending every Sunday for four years, and have never heard a sermon on hell or damnation. No one has ever claimed that gays are going to hell by virtue of being gay. Pretty much without fail, the sermons take themes from the life of Jesus or the scriptures and apply them to our lives, to make us better disciples of Christ.
They are unwelcoming to gays
Not true either. At least in the sense that we welcome everyone, regardless of background, history, race, sexual orientation, etc. to worship with us. The general opinion of our parish is that sexual behavior outside a traditional male/female monogamous marriage is contrary to faith and scripture, and I can understand that some people are uncomfortable with that. But still, for our part, they are welcome here. I’m told we have some gay members, although I don’t make it a habit to inquire about the sexual preferences of my fellow congregants.
I just wanted to clear up those misconceptions. It’s, shall we say, an exciting time to be part of the Episcopal Church.
I’m not sure it’s a myth that needs dispelling, really: I didn’t think that any Episcopal church would pause the service, ask if there were any homosexuals present, and then chase them out with a (ceremonial and beautifully gilted) baseball bat.
It’s just that, to use your phrase, feeling “uncomfortable” precludes feeling “welcome.” Churches serve many purposes, but the defining feature that makes a church different then any other social organization is a common faith, and when a majority of the people in a parish feel that an aspect of someone’s self as fundamental as sexual orientation violates that faith then it’s hard to feel welcome.
I actually wouldn’t even call myself gay. I’m more the “had a close relationship with another man in the past, reserve the right to do so again in the future” type. I don’t feel personally insulted when I hear something anti-homosexual; rather, I view such rhetoric as a reflection of the speaker. I’m not saying that the people in your parish are homophobic–I’m willing to accept that some people genuinely believe scripture contradicts homosexual acts. However, I think that such people are a small subset of those who hold the Leviticus to be the last word on sexual orientation, and that the rest of that crowd has far uglier motives. Personally, I don’t know if the Bible prohibits faithful Christians from engaging in homosexual acts, but I do believe that, on the list of things emphasised by the new testament, sexual orientation just ain’t high on the list and important to the faith.
Hey, sounds good to me. Despite appearances, we’re not really preoccupied with it on your average Sunday morning. Just trying to minimize the ‘us vs. them’ stuff that sometimes is all that gets in the newspapers.
The title rector refers to the priest, or senior priest, in a regular parish church, but you would actually call them Mother or Father ******
