Cite that anyone anywhere has ever had that discussion.
Since this board wasn’t around back in the 70’s, that would be quite a trick.
When cisgender female athletes complain about the physical advantage of trans athletes, the response to them seems to be…“Deal with it.”
The front page for the Women’s Liberation Front currently has two anti-trans stories on the front of their website.
They do if they want me to consider them feminist. If shitbags like the women you’re so ardently defending can unilaterally declare that someone else isn’t a woman, I get to do the exact same thing when they try to call themselves feminist.
…is not related to anything I’ve said in this thread.
Yeah, I agree, Terfs are also usually deeply prejudiced against men.
So what?
Maybe you should read the OP before contributing to this thread, then? They’re specifically one of the two groups described in the article she linked to.
C’mon now. There are folks running in high school girls’ races that have a demonstrated advantage. Is that fair? Should sport just abolish so-called ‘gender’ categories? I am beginning to think that’s what we should do.
Yes, it’s fictional. Predators will predate. Pervs will perv. Liars will lie. Recognizing that trans people exist and should be treated like humans doesn’t change any of that. A predator will put themselves in position to hurt people – treating trans people like human beings doesn’t make this more likely.
On what basis do you deny that the woman in the article I linked to is, in fact, a woman?
The strategy I describe already works. I’ve known assholes who have done such disgusting things, and generally gotten away with it, because most people don’t pay much attention to who else is in the bathroom. Most people aren’t worried about who’s in the next stall. It’s always been possible and always will be, and its frequency doesn’t depend on whether we treat trans people like human beings.
Most people go to the bathroom, do their business, and get out. A few pervs find ways to do pervy things in bathrooms – by wearing a disguise, pretending to be the janitor, just going in feigning confidence, or whatever. Treating trans people with dignity and respect doesn’t change any of this.
Might. Sure. I posted more than a theory. You asked for evidence and I provided it. It’s strong evidence, at that. But to you it’s just not there.
We also know that it fails to lead to massive changes in physiology that make a difference in athletics. You’re smart enough to see it, you either choose not to or hate to admit it.
Sure you don’t. You have no idea if someone that lived into his 40s and began weight training while a man has and transitioned to a woman has an advantage in a sport consisting mostly of pure strength has an advantage over other women. I have a hard time believing that you have no idea.
You didn’t respond to this:
I didn’t say anything of the sort. Their gender is irrelevant – that they allegedly assaulted people is very bad, but treating trans people like humans doesn’t make assault more likely. The problem in that case, apparently, was putting a predator in a position, without proper supervision/oversight, in which they could get away with doing terrible things. That has nothing to do with gender identity, and probably plenty to do with the serious problems in our corrections system.
(Bolding mine)
Citing one individual rapist does nothing to show this. If transwomen are less likely than ciswomen to commit sexual assault, then this individual rapist does not make your argument. Stop looking at individual outliers, look for actual data.
Really? Were you like… asleep during all of the 2000s? Actually finding the headlines in question is quite difficult, but I guarantee I’m not the only one who’s seen or heard of people being threatened by gay people in gendered locker rooms. Seriously. Like, Miller, you were awake at some point between Stonewall and now, right?
Really?You mentioned women oppressing other women. Obviously we disagree about what qualifies, because I would definitely have put dictating other women how they should live their lives and what they should do or not in their own bedroom, and supporting laws to this effect, as an obvious instance of it.
I’m open to correction but I’d be very surprised if the question of whether lesbians should be allowed in women’s prisons was ever a matter of serious discussion.
But if you allow people access to female spaces on the basis of a simple self-certification (such as genderqueer people who feel more like a woman on a given day, for example) then you’re also allowing predators who’ve no compunction about just flat-out lying about such things the same privilege. You’re giving them easier access to those spaces, access which they have to work much harder for at the moment. For women who (for understandable reasons) are uncomfortable around men, and who have absolutely no way to tell the difference between genuine trans people and lying predators, this can be very troubling. It’s not a concern that can just be hand-waved away by calling these women bigots and haters and TERFS or whatever.
What, specifically, other than “suck it up, buttercup”, would you actually say to those women to convince them that this is a good idea?
This is already how it works. Generally, anyone can walk into any bathroom. But generally people don’t do this in the “wrong” one, because almost no one has any interest in going into the bathroom except to use the facilities.
Nothing changes if we treat trans people with decency, in terms of threats to women. Liars can lie and get into the “wrong” bathroom, just like they always could. There’s no new danger or risk here.
But then shouldn’t this lead to the conclusion that women only spaces are utterly unnecessary?
Because I’m not arguing that transwomen in women only spaces is clearly a problem. I’m arguing that if there’s actually a problem wrt the presence of men in some spaces (be it safety or simply prudishness or whatever else), then the access of people stating that they identify as a woman despite not having a woman make up is also a legitimate concern.
If it doesn’t matter who enters a locker room because anyway pervs will find ways to do their perv things and this is addressed by existing laws about pervs and perv things, and women have no valid reason to be bothered by the unwanted sight of a dick, then I’m not sure why the solution advocated shouldn’t be to make to make these spaces coed, period.
No it isn’t. If a man walks into a women’s bathroom today (or locker room, or domestic violence shelter, or whatever) he’s told to get out, and if he refuses security or the police will remove him. If he’s a predator, and if he can establish his bona fides by simply saying “I’m a woman”, what recourse does anyone have? Why can’t he stay there for as long as he likes? And how are vulnerable women in the same space supposed to deal with that?
And if there was some way for women to tell the difference between non-passing trans women and predators I might agree. But there isn’t.
Are we starting that “What if they just say that they are a woman and march into the women’s room” crap yet again?
This sounds like gun-proponent logic: “If we put up a school sign that says this is a gun-free zone, shooters can still bring in guns anyway, so why bother labeling it a gun-free zone?”
Here’s a conversation on the subject from 2013.
A Quora question about why lesbians are allowed in women’s locker rooms but not straight men. That’s from 2015.
A page at debate.org over whether queer people in general (not just trans people) should be allowed to use the same locker room as everyone else. Lots of comments there about people not wanting to be “ogled” by other people while they’re showering.
A forum post from 2014 from a woman who doesn’t want to share a locker room with a lesbian.
This undated article from “NewsMachete” ( :dubious: ) uses the transgender bathroom debate as a launching point to argue that lesbians should be required to use the men’s room, so they don’t creep on the straight ladies. Given the stories it references, it appears to be from around 2015.
So, yeah, that’s not an uncommon sentiment by any means, even today.