Eric Flints 1632/1633/Ring of Fire Discussion (spoilers)

Cafe Society
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Thought I’d make a multi-tasking thread to discuss the series by Eric Flint entitled 1632. I just finished Ring of Fire and am totally looking forward to 1634: The Galileo Affair, and wanted to see if any other dopers out there are interested in the series. Basically, the series is about a small town in West Virginia that is accidentally teleported from the year 2000 to the year 1632 in Germany…right smack in the middle of the 30 years war. Its all about how these displaced Americans cope with the situation, and how the people in their new world cope with them.

So, for the thread I’d like to hear what people think about the series, as well as any historian types that want to comment on any mistakes or oversights in the story line and backdrop. In addition, I’d like to hear some speculations on where you think the series is going and what you think might happen in later books. Finally, I’d like to hear what people think THEY would do in that situation, and what you think would be important technology wise to research and develop.

I’ll get the ball rolling with my own thoughts. I found the series very interesting. I basically bought the first book almost randomly, not knowing anything about it. I was put off by the cover art, which I thought was pretty cheesy, but the dust cover sounded interesting. The story is one thats been done before, but I found the characters interesting. The second book really hooked me. I REALLY enjoyed 1633, and it definitely put the next book on a must read list for me. The third book, Ring of Fire is basically just a bunch of short stories by various authors but set in the same universe with the same characters. It really fills in a lot of holes, but doesn’t really drive the story forward…that has to wait until April when 1634 comes out.

Some of the things I think will happen are: I think the American fleet, once it arrives on station in the Baltic is definitely going to be a huge shock to France/Spain. They are going to kick some serious ass. I also think that Oliver Cromwell is going to play a major roll when they bust him out of the tower. He and the uptimers in England are going to do some serious damage, and turn the island upside down. Not sure what will happen with Wentworth…I think he’s going to see the light though and go with Oliver Cromwell and the Americans in the end. I figure the Scots are going to also play a major roll. France is going to run into serious production problems trying to develop advanced weapons…basically the problem they already discussed in the book about trying to make stuff too advanced, instead of concentrating on more modest innovations that you can make in huge quantities. I think the Swedes, armed with huge masses of American designed flintlocks with fixed bayonettes are going to kick some serious ass when the final showdown happens…with the Americans providing all the other goodies they have. The Dutch I think are also going to play a pretty major roll, but not sure what the outcome is going to be with Spain holding half the country.

Stuff I’d do: Well, I think they’ve done a fair job, but I think I’d concentrate seriously on the steam engine and locomotives. Trains and the ability to transport huge quantities of men and material would be a HUGE advantage…and one they could certainly do. Again, THEY don’t have to build everything…they can act as technical advisors and help their allies build the things. A steam engine isn’t that difficult to build, an a rail system wouldn’t be that hard either…they have plenty of man power resources to do it if they wanted to concentrate on this. After all Gustov is building an entire canal system over again, as the old one is pretty much in disrepair.

I’d really concentrate on the basics…like more advanced steel production. They KNOW how to make higher grades of steel after all…hell, they even know where the resources they need are. I’m not sure if they are developing the conical shaped mini-ball bullet with rifled barrels, but they really should be if they aren’t. This is something thats easy enough to do, and would have a profound effect on the battle field. I can understand why they are staying with muzzle loaders and flint locks for now, but the bullet is vital for accuracy and range. I think they should be diverting a higher percentage of their efforts to developing more modern propellents too (instead of black powder…how hard would this be??) as well as percussion caps.

The airplanes they have, while cool, is a waste IMO. They only have X number of engines available after all, and gasoline is definitely a problem. I think they would be better served by developing airships (possibly with steam propulsion or some other means of propulsion) or balloon technologies, like was used in the Civil war…coupled with wired or wireless communications. After all, they are the ONLY ones in the sky…you don’t need airplanes and the other things are much easier to build and maintain.

The fleet is a great idea, though again, I think I’d produce something more like the Constitution (yankee frigate with all the innovations), and work on cannon range and accuracy. Maybe even develop a better carrage or fixed mount that allows a greater range of motion…and work on breach loaders for the cannons. Again, this wouldn’t be that hard, as they know how to make an offset screw, which is the key. Perhaps they could make a few iron clad type battle ships with gas turbine engines like they are making in the book, to go along with them, but I think they’d be better served with yankee frigates in the short term…basically, they would totally outclass anything in the world thats out there with them.

I’m not sure what the problem is with developing penicillin, but I’d definitely make this a huge priority too. I think they are doing great with the drugs they are producing, but I’d seriously make every effort to develop this (if its possible). I suppose overseas trade is pretty much out, but if they could, they should try and get their hands on cocaine also for morphine. Canibus is great as an analgesic, but morphine is a hell of a lot better.

Thats it for now. Hopefully the thread will be one that folks are interested. If you haven’t read the book but are interested anyway, by all means join in. Speculate on what YOU would do if you and your town was suddenly thrust back in time to 17th century Europe during the 100 Years War.

Reguards,
XT

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If you have read In the Navy , then you will have an indication of what the casuaty rates are going to be , for whomever is down range. I believe a comparison with the Battle of Vicksburg ? was mentioned , of 43 k casualties.

Its probably not all that difficult for an 18th century tech base, some other dopers will be around to mention the metallurgy problems to start with, land surveys for where the tracks go when you do get the metallurgy going.

The thing is , from what you should have gleamed from the books , is that this is a back burner project, it is planned but they have other things to do ** Now** . The railroad is probably going to get further prominence in about 1640 , their timeline.

Actually , the French are looking at the Minnie , as for the modern ammo , the bathtub industry is pushing out modest amounts of mecury fulminate ? for reloading the current ammo , especially the M60 7.62 reloads. Large scale production of the percussion caps is being held up by lack of stainless steel.

What the swedes really needed and they are getting , is a much smaller army than they currently have. The old fashioned black powder rifles they are going to be using , means they can use captured stock , and not have to worry bout running out of ammo ,and tons of powder just sitting around unuseable.

Death from above , has a quality all of its own , in a normally 2 axis warfare enviroment.

You may have missed it , but Simpson did spell out that he expects the fleet to field Timberclads , which is probably the closest that you are gonnna get right now to Old Iron Sides.

I think morphine is normally available at that time , if not they can have it shipped in from Afganistan or closer if poppies grow elseware in Europe. As for the anti-biotic , they do have one they are using , that was only phased out in North America cause a certain portion of the population died from using it. In the 16xx universe , thats peanuts for a population thats used to mortality rates being on the high side.

Declan

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Yep, definitely got that from the book. What I’m saying is, this is something I’d deviate from the book on…if its possible. I think rail transport would be key, if it could be done…and I don’t see why it couldn’t be. Its something I’d push for early if it was do-able.

Again, I remember the French are doing this…but I don’t remember if the Americans/Swedes are. If they aren’t, they are making a huge mistake on the minnie-ball/rifled barrels. This is a fairly simple technology that can have a profound effect. They could make the bullets in quantity and still use captured supplies, simply using musket balls in place of minnie balls if they had too. Might screw up the rifling, but it would still work. And I doubt it would be a problem in any case…how hard would it be to cast minnie balls using lead from captured musket balls if you had the molds?

I remember they mentioning the captured stocks thing as far as the black powder and percussion caps debate went, and its definitely a valid point. Its just something I’d push a bit harder myself than they seem to be doing. They are back burnering a lot of projects that I would give a higher priority I guess I’m saying.

True, but you don’t need an airplane for this. An airship would be much more effective. This is a time when armies moved at a snails pace. A nice steam powered airship could drop bombs or whatever on slow moving formations…and it would be easier to build/maintain than the airplanes. It would also be more renewable, as you could pretty much make it from existing technologies of the day. If its not feasible to make, then recon balloons would be…like the ones used during the Civil war. I just find the idea of airplanes kind of a waste in their situation.

Nope, didn’t miss it. But Simpsons timber clads are shallow draft paddle wheel river craft. I’m talking about something that would let them dominate the Baltic…and probably the Atlantic as well. Yankee Frigates would certainly be in their reach to build, and easily. After all, they have the stability calculations and designs already. Gustov is building a US Navy schooner, but he and the Americans could certainly build Frigates. The ships would dominate…they gave the British fits in the 18th and early 19th century after all. Couple that with better cannon, and you could build such a fleet realitively fast…and it would be absolutely decisive at the time.

I remember what you are talking about, but not what the drug is. However, penicillin is a more effective drug, even forgetting the death rate due to bad reaction. And I don’t think its that difficult to produce. Its just bread mold, right? I’m not sure how its processed, or how difficult it is to manufacture in quantity though. If its not that difficult to produce though, I’d certainly be focusing on it. I’d use the drug in the book in the mean time, but it would definitely be a priority to research and develop.

-XT

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OMG, I didn’t know the short story book, Ring of Fire was out! I want to go to the bookstore right now and get it but *damn, *I’m stuck until later this evening.

I love 1632 and 1633. But I thought that the next volume was subtitled “The Baltic War” not “the Galileo Affair” Not that it matters I guess.

One of the things that makes this series interesting to me is that this time it’s a whole GROUP of people that make a time jump, not just one person who just happens to be extraordinarily talented. You know, Lest Darkness Fall or Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen. This isn’t a band of heros, there’s a fair scattering of jerks in there, some are middlin’, the normal mix one would find in a town.

Another thing I like is that the characters evolve. John Simpson doesn’t stay a totally arrogant and elitist prick. And I like it that he’s running the Navy a bit tighter than Frank Jackson is running the Army.

The books don’t save all the good guys either. Some of the best of them die. And I loved the serial number joke at the end of 1633.

*I remember what you are talking about, but not what the drug is. However, penicillin is a more effective drug, even forgetting the death rate due to bad reaction. And I don’t think its that difficult to produce. Its just bread mold, right? I’m not sure how its processed, or how difficult it is to manufacture in quantity though. If its not that difficult to produce though, I’d certainly be focusing on it. I’d use the drug in the book in the mean time, but it would definitely be a priority to research and develop.

-XT*

xtisme, the drug was called chloramphenicol. I spoke about it to my sister, who is a pharmacist, and she agreed with the calculations of the folks in the books, that it has a bad reaction rate of about 1 in 25000. When one considers the ordinary mortaility rate from disease in that period, most would settle for those odds. However it is processed it can’t be too difficult, as Tom Stoner seems to be happily brewing it up. And they can make sulfa drugs too, as well as using another analgesic Tom grows, that is perfectly legal in their new era.

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Thought maybe this thread had died of apathy. :slight_smile: Maybe it will pick up some momentum. Or maybe not many dopers have read it I suppose. The Ring of Fire is definitely worth getting if you are a fan. I especially liked the last and longest short story by Eric Flint himself.

Thanks, couldn’t remember the name of the drug. :slight_smile: I understand that the mortality rate of 1 in 25000 is laughable back then. I guess my assumption is that penicillin is a more effective drug over all, leaving the mortality rate arguement aside completely. If this isn’t the case, then they are probably doing exactly the right thing. For all I know, penicillin is difficult to manufacture or process…or has a shorter shelf life or whatever. I’m not sure.

I remember about the sulfa drugs as well…and thats again something I’d definitely focus on, just like in the book. I suppose another thing I’d do, now that I think about it, is to get the one modern doctor teaching as many students as he can about modern medicine.

-XT

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I didn’t know there was a series. I read the first book a year or so ago, and I just reserved the other two at the library.

To build on the previous post, they should establish a university to gather all the intellectual talent they can. They can then pick the smartest and most trustworthy of the ‘natives’ to help develop all their modern advances. It’s clear that having grown up with 20th century tech doesn’t necessarily make you smart enough to use it all, and coming from the 17th century doesn’t make you unable to work with these concepts. Maybe that’s how Galileo will figure in, actually.

Another great use for a steam engine would be to update printing technology. At the time, presses were still doing just a few pages per minute with the help of a gang of apprentices. With an engine, you could put out books by the thousands. It would barely matter what you published, you’d definately accelerate progress. At the very least, you’d increase literacy, which is always a good thing in a free society.

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Love it. The action, esp. the airplane stuff and the shifting Euro’s trying to crush Grantville all seem very real. I wish the books came out faster.

I’ll nit pick, I thought that having Rachel raise Spinoza was a tiny bit silly – John Locke was born the same year … why not have him raised by the Simpsons?

Also there is a vaccine for the plague believe it or not. It is farily effective. I know they have limited resources, but you can’t tell me manufacturing, transporting and building delivery vehicles for tons and tons of DDT is saner & more cost effective than putting those resources into manufacturing a vaccine… they should be doing the same for small pox, I know in the book they said they couldn’t because they didn’t have stainless steel vats … but the first small pox vaccines were devloped by Edward Jenner in 1796; he subcutaneously inoculated patients with the milder cowpox virus… it is just a ridiculous story-plot device… other than that though it really is interesting and wonderful

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Actually, in Ring of Fire I think they talk about cowpox and the doctor (James?) is trying to push through a plan to test it out. So they actually are considering that. Whats the vaccine for plague? Basic antibodies taken from plague survivors? How stable is, do you know? Does it last long (i.e. have a long ‘shelf life’)?

Personally I still think a rail road should be one of the top priorities. It wouldn’t even need to be that extensive, just connecting parts of Germany initially, then branching out to Sweden eventually.

-XT

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The first rail road you are probably going to see , is probably a Ford 150 pulling a bunch of cargo and passenger cars , on wooden or concrete railings , if possible. While it is doable , even at that era , where do you have the rail heading too ? , one spur line is gonna be heading to jenna , and the other one to madegburg ?.

After that , I really cant see what the rail network would look like.

I would expect the minnie balls to be issued to the troops within months , its a doable project.

The conference on the Baen bar , has a whole projected timeline of whats to come and the reasons why its not really able to do it sooner. Plus E. Flint has emphasized over and over again, that the real evolution is not going to be technical , but more social and medical and political.

It may yet end up being the French that operate the airships, we shall have to see , but its expected that the oppositions air defense is going to get a lot better. For all an airships advantages ,it does have some disadvantages that make heavier than air a better bet for now , while the engines last.

Sooner or later the little things on the engines are going to fail and your back to a straight line 4 cylinder motor from ww1 , being the only producable engine, and those would probably work better on the dirigibles.

Must have read too much into that then, but with Eddies library , and 16xx shipwrights, old ironsides may yet sail again , now all we need is a lesbian coast gaurd captain for command :slight_smile:

My thinking is that if Penicilin was that easy to make , they would have made it by now , instead of going with that old superdrug. Your idea of using coke , got me thinking , it probably would be a bad idea of using it for a general anestetic , but novacaine has to be a derivitative of it , for dental use.

Declan

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Well, I was trying to think of all the drugs that would be available and reasonably easy to manufacture. They have MJ with them which they are already growing and planning to use. As you mentioned, they could get their hands on poppy for opium products (not sure how easy morphine is to manufacture). Cocaine is the other thing that they could get their hands on. No, its not the best analgisic out there, but they used it a lot in the late 19th and early 20th century for that, and it would be better than nothing. No idea how easy it is to manufacture novacaine or its derivatives again.

Well, as for the penicillin I’m not sure they could have made it yet, even if it is easy. After all, they’d need to have the correct type of bread mold. Once they have that, I’m not sure how long it takes to grow and product the penicillin. My wife says they have to ‘stablize’ it also, but she isn’t sure what the process is.

I remember what you are saying about the rail road now using wooden rails and an old truck. :slight_smile: Thats probably going to be the first one, true enough. But a narrow gage rail system using a steam engine (wouldn’t have to be a very large engine) could be developed. Like I said, they could do it in the 19th century easily enough. The tough part would be the rails, and they don’t need the highest grade steel for that. Clearing and grading the land would be manpower intensive…but they HAVE a lot of man power in the 17th century natives. Hell, have the army do part of it like the old roman legions. :slight_smile:

-XT

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The first two books, 1632 and 1633, can be downloaded for free from http://www.webscription.net/free/ in several different formats, including Microsoft Reader, HTML, and RTF. I read 1632 on my Pocket PC while commuting on a light rail train.

Rick

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My eyes are bllodshot like you wouldn’t believe. I did manage to get to the bookstore las night to get Ring of Fire. I got it home, started reading, and got so deep into it that the next thing I know it’s 1:30AM, and I had to get up in three hours.

Love it all so far. One thing that amuses me is all of our responses that are variations on “They should be doing this!” And the first story in the book “In the Navy” had a scene just like that. Eddie Cantrell is trying to tell Mike Stearns how important his ironclad project is. And Mike wearily asks him if he knows how many other people are saying that.

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Re-reading my post - geesh. I mean what would I say if I didn’t like it. In for a penny tho …

The vaccine is basically a dead plague bacillus in solution. It can last in a sterile non-extreme environment indefinitely. Probably 2 weeks of supervision by Dr. James & hard, careful work could produce enough vaccine for all of Grantville. For more, well it would be less trouble than shiping a ton of DDT around the continent - that is all I am saying.

QUOTE=xtisme]Actually, in Ring of Fire I think they talk about cowpox and the doctor (James?) is trying to push through a plan to test it out. So they actually are considering that. -XT
[/QUOTE]

I saw in 1634 he was pushing that, but Mike says paraphrased-- “We need the steel for the train and ironclads”, and the story mentions quite a few fears they would all be killed in a smallpox outbreak … it simply isn’t necessary to have huge resources to handle that and I think they make it more complicated than it really is.

Simpson, the Preist, Mike & the Doc are my favorite characters and I thought the origin of the RoF in 1632 was masterful – awesome, witty and “believable” in a Sci-Fi way.

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I simply loved the final short story in RoF (I won’t go into it, as Baker is currently reading it :))…The Wallenstein Gambit. I think thats SO cool and wonder what impact it will have on the progression of the story from here.

In The Navy was also a really good one…really filled in a lot of gaps (plus I love David Weber, especially his Honor Harrington series). Over all, putting out this anthology of short stories at this time was a great idea. I wonder how many books he’s planning in this series.

I can’t wait to find out if I’m right about Oliver Cromwell. :slight_smile:

-XT

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I’m pretty sure that anyone who likes this series already knows this but if you like these books take a look at the “Island in the Sea of Time Series” by S.M. Stirling.

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Actually start off with guns of the south by turtledove and then move on to Stirlings series.

Declan

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One thing I have noticed is that although human health is a big issue in the books little is said about animal health. If a veterinarian went back along with Grantville, I haven’t heard about it. I can’t remember which character it was did say, in reference to the American livestock “They have begun a careful breeding program to keep up the strains.” Some folks have pets, and Richelieu got a purebred Siamese kitten from Rebecca, as a diplomatic gift. Of course horses and cattle have recieved mention, along with goats, pigs, and chickens. But I wonder if there’s anyone really grounded in the animal sciences. I guess it’s as Flint said, history is complicated, not everything is going to get included.

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I remember reading something about it on the baen forum, but I am gonna guess and say it probably something to do with the downtimers and animal husbandry litterally built right into the way they live.

There really can’t be all that many species of what the europeans would call exotic animals in Gville. Horses are horses , cows are cows . Which in my opinion would be the only animals that mattered , on first glimpse.

Declan

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But they are not the same horses and cows that existed in the 1600s. The horses will be more specialized, and the cows will produce much more milk. And the chickens will lay more eggs. The breeding that the species have been through in the intervening 300+ years has had a huge affect on them.

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Definitely the animals will be more advanced. However, realistically, how many horses, cows, chickens, etc are going to be in a small mining town in West Virginia in the year 2000? I can’t belive there would be more than a handful…there weren’t a lot of farms afaik. The only one I can think of is the one Stoner has…and thats more a hippy commune thing than a farm.

If they don’t have a large base of stock, I don’t see how they would be able to have a very effective breeding program, unless someone in town is REALLY on the ball. Its an interesting possibility though if Eric Flint persues it.

-XT