Escorted off a flight .....

[UltraVires]

@Ravenman

I disagree. Passengers, on the whole, have become much more self-entitled and I think flight crews are increasingly often being expected to put up with way too much crap.

Just because someone can afford $250 to fly from Oklahoma City to Chicago doesn’t mean they are the Queen of Sheba. If someone wants to throw a childish tantrum, the airline is doing the adults on the plane a great service by kicking that person off.

That’s just part of customer service. I hate the self-entitled assholes as well, but that doesn’t mean the guy should miss his mother’s funeral because he was in a bad mood and said the word “fuck.”

The fact that he was let on a later flight shows that there was no terrorism danger or anything else that should be subject to the “new” “protections” given to a flight crew. It was likely a simple power trip. The “interfering with a flight crew” charge has replaced the “obstructing an officer” charge as a catch all to make people good little sheep on the plane.

I like the peace and quiet, but not the method used.

[Johnny_L.A]

@jtgain

TThe fact that he was let on a later flight shows that there was no terrorism danger or anything else that should be subject to the “new” “protections” given to a flight crew. It was likely a simple power trip. The “interfering with a flight crew” charge has replaced the “obstructing an officer” charge as a catch all to make people good little sheep on the plane.

It’s not a question of terrorism. It’s a question of an angry person in a sealed cylinder who may or may not become violent. Suppose the airplane was delayed at the destination or had to divert. I was on a plane that diverted once, and we had to sit in an un-airconditioned metal tube in Louisiana in Summer for quite a while. Due to contractual rules, no one was allowed off of the plane except for a medical emergency. What would this pissed-off guy do in such a situation? He might sit in his seat sobbing quietly. Or he might start rampaging through the aircraft demanding to talk to the captain and threatening to punch his lights out. I would not want a potentially violent individual on my aircraft.

As for ‘new’ ‘protections’, they’ve been around for decades. The FARs prohibit interfering with a flight crew. Do some flight attendants have a ‘power trip’? Sure. I was reading comments by one recently, that made her appear to be a real bitch. But it’s certainly not unreasonable for them to not have to put up with abuse and possible violence in the workplace. If I owned a restaurant and a diner was behaving badly, I’d eject him.

Anyone who doesn’t like the rules is free to fly himself.

[Siam_Sam]

@Johnny_L.A

‘Fly, damn you! FLY!’

That F-word can be a sensitive one for some airlines.

Especially after MH370.

[Green_Bean]

@LurkerInNJ

I personally find it very interesting that they told him they had a “zero tolerance” for the “f word” when in fact their on-demand entertainment movie & tv listings contains many choices where the “f word” is used. Wolf of Wall Street, Dexter, True Detective, Goodfellas …

Them telling him that doesn’t mean there is a real zero-tolerance policy on it. They were probably just saying what they had to to get him off the plane and calmed down.

[TokyoBayer]

@Ludovic

On the other hand, actually saying “F-bomb” might be worse than the other F-word on an airplane.

This wins.

@jtgain

Since 9/11, flight crews are starting to act like asshole cops with the feeling of superiority and authority and turning into Barney Fifes just because they can.

and

@Ravenman

I disagree. Passengers, on the whole, have become much more self-entitled and I think flight crews are increasingly often being expected to put up with way too much crap.

I think it’s neither. When I started flying 34 years ago, planes weren’t full, the seats were further apart and everyone had more space. I used to prefer to fly coach to Japan since there would always be three or four empty seats that you could lay down and sleep. It would only take a few minutes to get through security and you weren’t already pissed off by the time you board.

There were about the same number of flight attendants for half the number of passengers. There weren’t as many connecting flights, with less time pressure.

I hate flying now, especially across the Pacific, but also US domestic flights.

Everyone gives the TSA a hard time, but the problem is that they are hiring people who have no training, and give them vague orders while telling them they have to be firm.

@Green_Bean

Them telling him that doesn’t mean there is a real zero-tolerance policy on it. They were probably just saying what they had to to get him off the plane and calmed down.

Exactly.

[What_the]

@Alessan

Did he swear at the flight crew, or did he just swear when speaking to them? For some people, profanity is just a normal part of their vocabulary. Throwing someone off a plane for colorful use of idiom seems a bit fucking harsh.

Thank-you for asking…many others want to jump to conclusions.

For all I know he simply mumbled under his breath “Well then I’m fucked…” when he determined that the completely messed up flight situation was going to result in his missing his personal emergency and the flight attendant didn’t give a single shit…maybe she was even nasty herself.

I don’t know and I’m not totally defending my friend … I’m just trying to understand a messed up situation and specifically how they can take it only so far by putting him off the plane but not detaining him .

I do understand the security issues and I do give those who are responsible for our safety alot of benefit of the doubt.

[C_K_Dexter_Haven]

I’m not an airline employee, but I have done a lot of flying. A lot. And I’m trying not to jump to conclusions here, but I don’t think you’ve got the whole story. Your friend’s version makes it seem that he is an innocent victim, muttering quietly to himself, and he was badly mistreated. I gotta say, it doesn’t seem consistent with the airline reality that I’ve experienced. He says his cell phone was on? Was this after the announcement to turn off cell phones? Was the attendant asking him to please turn his phone off at the moment that he muttered “fuck”? Had she asked him several times already?

If she wanted him off the plane, she has to get the captain to turn the plane back to the gate, it’s a major inconvenience for the other passengers. If the story were really as your friend has described, if this is just the attendant having a bad day and flexing her power on some poor hapless victim, I’d think the passengers sitting nearby would have objected. His story seems totally implausible to me, that an attendant would increase passenger annoyance by extending the delay even more, just for some pique.

I think you’re getting a very distorted version.

[Smapti]

@jtgain

The fact that he was let on a later flight shows that there was no terrorism danger or anything else that should be subject to the “new” “protections” given to a flight crew. It was likely a simple power trip. The “interfering with a flight crew” charge has replaced the “obstructing an officer” charge as a catch all to make people good little sheep on the plane.

I’d much prefer to fly on a plane of “good little sheep” than with the kind of company you seem to be OK with.

[drewtwo99]

This story makes absolutely no sense as presented. I feel the OP is withholding information from us. Why would his “friend” be upset and swearing at the flight crew as they were pushing away from the gate and getting on with the flight, about to take off?

[enipla]

@TokyoBayer

Everyone gives the TSA a hard time, but the problem is that they are hiring people who have no training, and give them vague orders while telling them they have to be firm.

Well put.

I only fly once or twice a year, but from what I see, it must be a miserable job.

The OP’s friend was under extra stress and it sounds like he/she is only telling his side of the story. Or the part of the story he/she remembers.

A mumbled “Well I’m fucked…” IMHO wouldn’t and shouldn’t be reason to be removed from a flight. There has to be more to this.

We know that flight attendants deal with unhappy and aggravated passengers often. I’m sure they get sick of it. When you get on an airplane, it’s time to put on your big boy pants.

[Mr.Nylock]

I am not around people who use the f-word at all really. It is considered very impolite, it would be unusual for someone to curse like that in any sort of public situation unless they were a very crude person or intoxicated; maybe it is different where you are from.

[UltraVires]

@Smapti

I’d much prefer to fly on a plane of “good little sheep” than with the kind of company you seem to be OK with.

I would prefer to fly with those people as well, but life just doesn’t work out that way. Every service sector has to deal with unruly people to varying degrees. Some of the unruly people are just, in general, assholes, some are having a bad day, and some have legitimate grievances.

Several years ago, I got the dreaded phone call that my father had died. It was unexpected. The next morning, I was hungover, threw a bunch of stuff into a bag and went to the airport to fly home to be with family. I get to security, and yes, woe is me, I had a regular sized bottle of shaving cream in my carry on.

The TSA agent looked at me like I was the Jack of Spades in the Iraqi deck of cards and held the bottle of shaving cream high like it was a plastic explosive. I immediately said that I was sorry and packed in a rush and to “let me just throw that away” He became Mr. Procedure and acted like I was attempting to cover up evidence. He stated that he would have to log the “attempted contraband” into the computer and I had to go to the little office while he did it.

I’m in there for about 20 minutes and he’s handing me brochures about the policy regarding liquids and carry ons, etc. and I told him, exasperated, that I KNEW the fucking policy, but I packed in a hurry and put it in there by mistake. Throw the damn thing away, log it, test it for explosives, do whatever and just let me go. Of course, he started moving even slower just to show his authority.

Now, I can keep a cool head, but I wouldn’t blame any traveler for telling this guy to shove that bottle of shaving cream up his ass. Sideways. My father just died and I was hungover and in a terrible mood. If I went on a mild rant about what an asshole this guy was, like in any other industry, I should be permitted a fair amount of leeway. Certainly I shouldn’t be arrested or miss my flight because of it.

An irritated and frustrated passenger is not a DANGER to the airplane. That’s the whole point of these law is to protect an airline against a 9/11 style attack. It’s not so that the flight crew doesn’t have to hear anything less than pleasant, and it’s not to insulate passengers from the stresses and annoyances of life.

[kayaker]

@Mr.Nylock

I am not around people who use the f-word at all really. It is considered very impolite, it would be unusual for someone to curse like that in any sort of public situation unless they were a very crude person or intoxicated; maybe it is different where you are from.

Where do you live? Among my friends, fuck, cunt, motherfucker, asshole, taint, etc are all terms that are used when we discuss life, love, work, etc. Maybe the doctors, lawyers, iron workers, mechanics, housewives, etc that I pal around with are the exception.

[Mr.Nylock]

DC, admittedly this region is probably more genteel than most.

[elbows]

But, it comes down to their call to make. Keeping in mind that most every incident like this, that makes the news, began with a frustrated, angry traveler who begins to curse and abuse the flight crew.

Thinking because you’re angry and frustrated you get to take it out on those around you is pretty immature. If you’re an adult and behaving this way you’ve earned any consequences that come your way.

And the ‘TSA never charged her or anything’ defence is pretty lame in my eyes. She didn’t do anything illegal, why would they care?

She clearly felt her bad day entitled her to be an ass and curse at the crew. She should suck it up, learn her lesson, and move on like a grown ass woman.

From time to time, we all behave badly. Choose our words poorly. Lash out when we’re angry etc. Maturity comes when you can own that you should have behaved differently and do so in future. But you can’t get there by making excuses for your own bad behaviour.

[even_sven]

@jtgain

An irritated and frustrated passenger is not a DANGER to the airplane. That’s the whole point of these law is to protect an airline against a 9/11 style attack. It’s not so that the flight crew doesn’t have to hear anything less than pleasant, and it’s not to insulate passengers from the stresses and annoyances of life.

These rules date from before 911. The pilot is legally and morally personally responsible for transporting passengers safely while working in an enclosed and isolated space with little margin for error.

They have very little to work with when it comes to judging who will and will not be a potentially dangerous distraction. And if you can’t manage to walk through an airport and sit in your seat without causing an incident, that’s a pretty good sign that the pilot doesn’t want to deal with you. This is really one of the more basic tests of human decency here, and if you still can’t go an hour without cursing out a stranger, you’ve pretty much proven you are willing to behave in an erratic and unpredictable manner.

[Johnny_L.A]

jtgain: I agree with you about TSA. They are trained to follow rules, and seem to be unwilling or incapable of making judgement calls. I did some searching several years ago, and I found that they made about minimum wage (in this state). And there were all of those thefts that we don’t really hear much of anymore, where TSA agents were stealing anything that wasn’t sewn to the bag. I’m sure there are conscientious TSA agents, but the public image (well, my image anyway) is that of ill-trained schlubs who couldn’t get another job, and who like the Power of the Uniform in lieu of a wage higher than a Wal-Mart greeter.

@jtgain

An irritated and frustrated passenger is not a DANGER to the airplane.

I don’t agree. An irritated and frustrated passenger MIGHT not be a danger to the airplane. The crew doesn’t know. All they see is someone behaving badly.
‘Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.’

– Captain A. G. Lamplugh

In aviation, it is better to err on the side of caution. An airplane is a place for calmness. If a passenger cannot calm down, then he doesn’t belong on the plane. The cabin crew aren’t mind readers or seers of the future.

@jtgain

That’s the whole point of these law is to protect an airline against a 9/11 style attack. It’s not so that the flight crew doesn’t have to hear anything less than pleasant, and it’s not to insulate passengers from the stresses and annoyances of life.

The TSA searches, prohibiting certain carry-on items, taking of shoes, and such are ostensibly to protect the public against a terror attack. Removing someone from an aircraft is not new.
Sec. 91.11 — Prohibition on interference with crewmembers.

No person may assault, threaten, intimidate, or interfere with a crewmember in the performance of the crewmember’s duties aboard an aircraft being operated.

Sec. 91.3 — Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
And incidentally (not that it applies here):
Sec. 121.575 — Alcoholic beverages.

© No certificate holder may allow any person to board any of its aircraft if that person appears to be intoxicated.

To be completely honest, I don’t know when these particular rules were written; but I remember reading them in the FARs when I started flying in the '80s. Also, rules are numbered sequentially. Those Part 91 rules have very low numbers, which would mean they were there when the Part was originally written. They were not put in post-9/11.

I think we’re just hearing more often about people being removed from flights because everyone is paranoid after the attacks and incidents that have happened since then; plus the Internet allows us to read of every incident that is reported.

[UltraVires]

@even_sven

These rules date from before 911. The pilot is legally and morally personally responsible for transporting passengers safely while working in an enclosed and isolated space with little margin for error.

They have very little to work with when it comes to judging who will and will not be a potentially dangerous distraction. And if you can’t manage to walk through an airport and sit in your seat without causing an incident, that’s a pretty good sign that the pilot doesn’t want to deal with you. This is really one of the more basic tests of human decency here, and if you still can’t go an hour without cursing out a stranger, you’ve pretty much proven you are willing to behave in an erratic and unpredictable manner.

But there needs to be more Andy Taylor and less Barney Fife. Let a frustrated person rant for a little while and then bring in the “good cop” who will talk to him without attitude or an air of authority. Tell him that when he gets home he can file a complaint with the airline or the TSA, but for now, the flight needs to take off and the passengers and the crew can’t do their jobs dealing with the complaints and they can’t be corrected at this time. Please, sir, take your seat. We apologize that there has been this disagreement and we can debate it later. Can I get you something to drink or a snack? Let me put that in the overhead bin for you. We will be in Chicago/LA/Philly very soon, but again, for now, you are going to have to put this debate aside and let us get on with the flight. You know after 9/11, things are tightening up and this argument has to end right now, okay?

Now if that doesn’t work, then boot the guy. Don’t immediately start with the power trip.

[Mr.Nylock]

@jtgain

Now if that doesn’t work, then boot the guy. Don’t immediately start with the power trip.

Why would you assume it’s a power trip? If something goes bad, they will be held responsible. They might say “well he was cursing, and that gave us some concern, but he seemed like a good guy so we didn’t do anything.” No, that would not fly (joke haha) with their superiors, they would be reprimanded for not taking proper action. Their actions could easily be due to their general lack of power in the hierarchy and knowing they always need to cover their asses.

[What_the]

@drewtwo99

This story makes absolutely no sense as presented. I feel the OP is withholding information from us. Why would his “friend” be upset and swearing at the flight crew as they were pushing away from the gate and getting on with the flight, about to take off?

I don’t have the whole story but am looking forward to hearing more when he gets back from his trip…hopefully he’ll make it back without incident.

Reading thru things above it seems like the story has gotten mixed up a bit. I was told (and stated) that he didn’t swear at her…only about the situation.

One thing I want to point out is that the flight had been repeatedly delayed and I can imagine that the flight attendant was getting some grief from a few dif passengers.

As for recourse… lets pretend that the flight attendant was at least partially in the wrong. Would she have had to make an official report that my friend can get his hands on?