Ethnic minorities in fantasies

Cafe Society
21

Very true. However, there is a distinct difference between using human cultures as a template to build alien i.e extraterrestrial cultures, about which we can only speculate anyway, and using various non-anglo cultures to “enrich” a fantasy civilization which is peopled primarily by anglo-looking characters.

I know all this may sound petty, but as an avid fantasy/scifi buff, I can hardly describe to you what it was like to realize that most of the stories I was reading and enjoying never really let the “colorful sidekick” be anything but the “colorful sidekick.” The great joy in reading these stories was to escape , after all, and to let myself be submerged within the hero’s character and the adventure.

This has certain ramifications, though, particularly when certain assumptions about the physical ethnicity of the hero become universal (as Ethelrist has observed). Speaking as an Asian American, this means not only suspending disbelief, but in learning to accept as “universal” a particular physical look as the hero. In effect, heroism has a face, and that face is not mine, or looks anything like mine.

I am not simply talking about being handsome (although the issue of standards of beauty is relevant), but, as Yue han has observed, “fantasy does have to be plausible; there are a lot of conventions to be lived up to.” This plausibility standard reveals that conventions in fantasy are driven by a particular perspective, much like the “male gaze” which drives the construction and composition of visual media. Having someone who looks like me pop up in the middle of a fantasy, even one based on a totally fictitious world, stretches credibility and requires the most excruciating rationalization, otherwise it isn’t believable (as Gaspode observes). Feist’s work is a good example of this; the “orientals” Gaspode mentions have all the qualities he lists, including the fact that they are * from another planet!* They can’t be people from the same world, or (heaven forbid!) have the story actually begin with them and have the anglo characters be the extra-world population.

And, it must be pointed out that the greatest wizard on both worlds comes from the anglo-type planet, is taken as a slave to the oriental planet, and shows himself to be superior to everyone there, perpetuating the whole Chuck Norris “white-guys-are-better-than-asian-guys-and-can-kick-their-ass-with-their-own-martial-arts” thing. So, while the story may have no intention of perpetuating racist stereotype, it creates such effects because of root assumptions that “other” races are not simply part of the “plausible, believable” world.

The latest posts seem to be pointing out that many fanatsies include ethnic minority characters (true), drawing away from the OP, which asked about any fantasies starring such characters. aegypt’s post seems particularly ironic, observing that Elric, as a white albino counts as a minority character, giving the (perhaps unintentional) impression that, even as “a minority” a white character makes a fine example.

Let me reiterate that I am a big fantasy buff, but that doesn’t mean I can’t also be aware that even fantasy cannot escape the perspectives from which it springs. Stories reflect the visions of their creators, and this is fine and good. I just know that I have yet to read a popular fantasy which has non-white characters in the primary roles. I will definitely look at some of the titles mentioned here, though.

Now, if we expand the definition of fantasy we can include works like the magic realism of Gabriel Garcia Marquez or Rudolfo Anaya, or novels by Leslie Marmon Silko, Louise Erdrich, and Toni Morrison, all of which contain truly fantastic characters and events, and IMHO, are marvelous novels as well. However, it hardly needs pointing out that it is no coincidence that, in order to get rich, believable, non-anglo, primary characters, we have to go to non-white authors.

22

Yondan, I’m a little surprised you’ve read the Riftwar series without reading its far superior sequel “Empire” series. That series takes place entirely on the “oriental” planet and, I feel, addresses almost all your points.

And a little side note on the “oriental” culture from these books. I read the “Empire” books after having taken a quarter of pre-columbian meso-american history, and found a lot of parallels with the “Empire” culture, almost as many as with Asian. Particularly, the lack of horses, the lack of steel, and the human sacrifice seemed particularly un-asian. Anyway, I highly recommend the second series (which Feist wrote with Janni Wurtis) for a look at the “other side” of the riftwar novels.

23

I actually did look at them, but was not impressd. It’s been a while, but I think some of the very things you mention as “un-asian” turned me off. It was as though the characters now had an asian facade, but were actually something else, in the same way white folks would don blackface to do minstrelsy in the U.S. in the 19th century. I understand the complimentary intent, but that does not ameliorate the distaste they evoke.

24

“A Wind in Cairo” by Judith Tarr
“Leopard’s Daughter” by Lee Killough
“The Devil Wives of Li Fong” by…mmmmh, don’t remember or have it handy…

“Paladin” by CJ Cherryh
“Ladylord” by Sasha Miller
“Svaha” by Charles de Lindt
“Bridge of Birds”, “The Story of the Stone”, and “Eight Skilled Gentlemen”, by Barry Hughart

That oughtta keep you busy for a couple of days…

25

Oh yeah, and the “Tomoe Gozen” trilogy by Jessica Amanda Salmonson. Comprised of “Tomoe Gozen”, “The Golden Naginata” and “Thousand Shrine Warrior”.

“The Harem of Aman Akbar” by Elizabeth Scarborough, too.

Seems to me I have a couple more featuring East Indian mythology floating around somewhere, I’ll look this weekend…

26

They were also not-really-human soulless monsters. (Niles voice: “Maris?”) Not the best example, I think … :slight_smile:

I’m not sure, (and I can’t check, because I loaned out my books) but Daimon, the coolest priest in the world and the star of C.S. Friedman’s Coldfire books was dark skinned and of South American decent, I thought. (Literally, as you find out at the end the fantasy world was settled by a colony ship with most of it’s inhabitants from various South American countries. (Yeah, I hate that cliché too, but it was handled better than usual)

This reaction, or fear of it, might be part of the reason that, generally, white fantasy authors DON’T do this . . . and so just avoid the issue by keeping ethnicity “generic.” Modern fantasy almost always contains mix & match bits from different real-world cultures anyway, and if you dismiss it as tokenism as soon as “non-asian” aspects appear, I don’t think you’re being fair. Sure it was a spinoff, but it did “have the story actually begin with them and have the anglo characters be the extra-world population.” (Admittedly the main character did jump into bed with the first white guy she met . . . but that’s a different issue) The white uber-mage didn’t even show up.

And to be fair, Fiest obviously is a bit embarrassed by his black-and-white Tolken-worshiping origins, and has been trying to retroactively fix his fantasy world since his fourth book. And while his asians were aliens, his blacks were not.

Jordan’s Aiel are a special case, I think. Any arabic influence is probably accidental, back from the time they used to call themselves Fremen. :slight_smile: Jordan’s a great example of how not to build a fantasy world. He just drops bits from real world cultures together, without any real effort to mesh them together, and each culture exists in a vacuum, with no bleedover or influence on the ones around it, and each culture has a “theme.” X are merchants, Y are warriors, Z are lesbian bondage sorceresses . . . And he deserves being hit with a jo for how badly he blew the Musashi/staff thing . . .

–
“I am the Quisach-Hadarach–Uh, Dragon Reborn! Dragon Reborn! Sorry . . .”

27

Yondan,
I can see what you’re getting at, but I think you’re overlooking just how hard fantasy writing can be. You create a world in which none of the major processes are anything like Earth (physics doesn’t apply). You then regress the population to something approximating medieval, a state which most people have trouble entirely grasping. I’d have to say that from watching movies and reading books the American audience, raised on principals of a classlesss society and freedom for all have a real difficulty fully comprehending the ful ramifications of a feudal system, and most of your target audience is going to be American. So you have created a world in which the very bais of reality is open to speculation, where the history is completely unknowable, and where the society is completely alien to most people. You have a problem. How the hell can your audience relate to this? How do you fill in the gaps? How do you get them to empathise with the characters, which you need to do if you want to sell books?

Tolkein knew the answer, and the tradition has carried on since then. You create a character that your audience can empathise with. A character living a lifestyle fairly similar to most of your audience, albeit technologically backward. And you make that character somewhat naive about the world. That way they can react the way your target audience would to the strange events, they can seek clarification etc. Tolkein had his hobbits. Feist has his naive kitchen boy. Pratchett has Mort, Esk, Twoflower and Carrot.

You seem to be asking that fantasy authors forego this and set their novels in other-cultural settings with leading characters who are familiar with that society and don’t react like the average America/Australian/Brit would react and who has knowledge they don’t have. That makes it damn hard to write an engaging story. Everything would need to be explained third person. Such a character can’t ask for example “What is seppeku?” and get it explained by another wiser character, it has to be expalined by the narrator. The only other alternative I can see is simply to state that the character is Black or Asian but is living in a familiar western-style society like the Shire. Yet this is simply a reversal of what you objected to above with taking non-European cultures and overlaying them on white populations. The Tsurani in the ‘Riftwar’ books were necessarily the foreigners because the novel is targeted at a European audience.

Of course in some cases this is possible, such as with the ‘Empire’ series, but that only works because the lead character is very, very naive about her position in the world and has a string of advisers who explain things to her. The first novel especially is very political and the scheming conversations allow the political, cultural, social and even architectural world to be talked about in detail because dtatiled schemes require detailed explanations. In addition to this it’s not really a fantasy novel at all. Magic is only used briefly at the very end as a ‘deus ex machina’. The only other race is as alien to the characters as they are to us. By the time you’ve finished this novel you’re familiar enough with the socio/politoical system for the real fantasy to kick in in the sequels.

There is however no way I can see that someone like Frodo or Pug could possibly have started out in a truly Oriental culture. The western readers would be completely dissociated from the story with no refrence point. It’s not only fantasy that does this of course. With the possible exceprion of some of James Michener’s stuff I can’t recall ever reading a book set in a non-European culture where the hero wasn’t basically European to give the reader a point of refernce. James Clavell’s work is a classic case in point. very well-written, accurate works but with European leads.

Your thoughts?

28

tisiphone, Thanks for the list! I will certainly look at these.

Ha! Good one! What’s your discipline? Aikido?

And are you so sure that the fact that the main character “jumped into bed with the first white guy she met” is a different issue? Anyway, I don’t mean to say dismiss the non-asian elements as tokenism, just that, when I first read the first Empire book when it came out, it simply rubbed me the wrong way. At the time, I did not have any clear thoughts about any of the ideas raised in this thread; I was struggling too deeply myself with conflicting feelings of wanting to belong to the mainstream, and yet that something was very upsetting about an overtly “asian” story that felt very contrived.

I think the use of the word “American” here illustrates my basic point about what happens with the universality of certain assumptions. My impression is that by “American” you mean anglo, when really it can mean peoples and cultures from all over the planet. However, the more exclusive usage is very common, and is at the heart of what drives the creation and marketing of popular fiction, reaching that “target audience,” the “average America/Australian/Brit” who will be able to relate quite readily to a western European cosmology and feudal history.

Now, I am not saying that this invalidates the stories or makes them bad in any way, I am simply pointing out that this tends to perpetuate certain assumptions and preconceptions about things like, what a hero looks like, definitions of strength, etc.
For myself, it has meant learning to think in and see the world through this Western perspective. This is a good thing in many, many, ways. The problem is, where does this leave all the rest of us? When this perspective is promoted to the exclusion of others, when books are targeted pretty much exclusively to “The western readers (who) would be completely dissociated from the story with no refrence point,” this requires the “other” readers to adopt a perspective which may be very unkind to the world view they grew up with. Like one doper described in another thread about the effect Heinlein had on her, I learned to internalize a great many negative ideas about myself and my family’s cultural heritage in large part because of the implicit messages contained in these very powerful stories. After all, who wants to be the sidekick? Or the guy from the exotic culture who makes a great challenge for the hero, but always ends up on the wrong end of the blade?

Now, I am not saying that Feist, et al should stop writing fantasies, or that some fantasies should not be targeted to your “average American Audience.” So, I guess what I am asking for is a richer variety of stories, such as tisiphone has begun to provide, and that rest on different sets of assumptions. I am really looking forward to checking out the titles recommended in this thread, to see if they really do a good job of extending the fantasy genre into diverse cultural milieux. I hope so, because I would like to have such stories not only for myself, but for my children who are already avid readers, and for whom I would like to provide a more balanced universe of fantasies to enjoy.

Of course, there is always Toni Morrison’s answer to the question “Why did you write these books?”

“Because I needed to read them.”

29

I said that. Now I’d like to expand on it.

You have to pick a mythological system, because foreign systems don’t cooperate with each other. So if you’re going to have characters from a minority, they have to come from somewhere, and the rules have to be the same there as everywhere else.

So if you have, say, an Asian-esque character in a European style magical world, (like Twoflower in Pratchett’s work, for those of you who read him) then there has to be an Asia-type place. And their mythology will either be European, or it will be wrong. Either why you’re making a harsh statement about Asian myths you don’t really mean to be making. So its easier to just leave it out.

Speaking of Pratchett, its interesting how he deals with it. In all the Discworld stories that don’t take place on The Continent (he’s never named the main continent), there is a dearth of magic and magical creatures. We’ve seen an Asia-analogue, an Australia-analogue, a Middle East/Africa-analogue… but there are no trolls or dwarfs living there, and much less weirdness than goes in Ankh-Morpork, the European-type city.

Magic exists in these places; flying carpets, living statues, etc… because magic is conceptually universal as a way to alter the physical laws as we know them. But dwarfs, trolls, vampires, gnomes, are all very Western ideas, and don’t fit in Pratchett’s Agatean Empire. (Asia-type place) And if the appropriate magical creatures for each local existed, you’d have total confusion.

To reuse the example, dragons in Guards! Guards! and The Colour of Magic are proud vicious creatures- European dragons. But the Asian dragon is different. This sort of conflict probably makes most authors just leave minorities out.

That doesn’t excuse it; I’d love to find a book either set completely in a foreign cultural mythology, or in a world where somehow everything really happened the way people believed it did. No idea how the author couldn’t solve the conflicts but it would be neat to see it done.

–John

30

Have you ever read “The Hundred Secret Senses” by Amy Tan? I’m not sure there are any non-Asian main characters in it at all. It’s kind of a “magical realism” type of novel, like Gabriel Garcia Marquez, who also writes non-Anglo novels. There is an “Akiko” series out, which I have not read, aimed at pre-teens (I think), which has an Asian protagonist with Anglo and Black friends.

I think all these authors are heeding the oft-given advice to Write What You Know. Amy Tan is familiar with Chinese legends, Gabriel Garcia Marquez is familiar with South American legends, JRR Tolkien is familiar with British legends. They are all writing what they know best. If you know what kind of story you would like to see, maybe you ought to write it yourself. I mean that!

You know, even the most popular fantasy book out right now, the Harry Potter series, takes place in England/Scotland, because that’s what the author knows best. Gryffindor is pretty integrated, though, as is Britain. And reference is made to foreign wizards with different customs, although they are not at the forefront, because Rowling writes about the culture she knows best, and that’s why it rings true.

-Theobroma

31

This seems maybe directed at me so let me be clear here: I am not Chinese. I just have a big interest… I am a Chinese major and general Sinophile (possibly not a word.). I have a Chinese screenname because it is the Chinese name I use in my classes.

I actually have made up fantasy stories set in a China-esque background in my head to amuse myself. The problem is that I don’t know enough folklore and background not to do anything stupid. Fantasy is weird. Did you know in China ghosts can’t stand to be spat on? Depending on the story they vanish or lose their supernatural powers if you do. This is the kind of thing you need to know before you write a story yet are not likely to run across.

Does anyone know of a Chinese folklore database? I’ve seen stufff with info on all the different ideas about elves, dragons, and other Western fantasy creatures and would be interested in an Asian equivalent.

–John

32

Actually, Yue Han, I was kind of talking to Yondan, but the same thing applies to you. If there is a story that you think needs to be told in a certain way, tell it. You can certainly find out about Chinese folklore in the library, as well as on the Internet, and show your work to to your Chinese professors and friends before you release it to the world at large.

A friend of mine (blond Irish Catholic type) translates Japanese comix, for which he needs a good grasp of Japanese folklore as well as language skills. He studied in Japan for a year, but I’d guess that he acquired the bulk of his “folklore” exposure in the years and years spent with Japanese stories and anime before he went there. You might do the same.

I would suggest that you start with books of folktales, children’s stories translated into English, and so on. Once your Chinese education is fully underway, perhaps you can read Chinese stories in the original language, which would be even better.

Then, you can be an Anglo writer who has written a fantasy novel with Chinese lead characters! Ta-dah!

-Theobroma

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This is a great observation, Theobroma, one I trying to allude to by quoting Morrison. Although, I think you have put your finger on the heart of the matter in a graceful, gentle way. In fact, although I have never really tried fiction, I am a writer, and this thread has given me some encouragement to try writing some fantasy.

Thanks for the encouragment.

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This is a great observation, Theobroma, one I was trying to allude to by quoting Morrison. As far as the overall thread issue, I think you have touched on the heart of the matter in a graceful, gentle way.

In fact, although I have never really tried fiction, I am a writer, and this thread has given me some encouragement to try writing some fantasy.

Thanks for the encouragment.

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Raymond E. Feist’s ‘Riftwar’ and ‘Empire’ series are based on the work of Professor Muhammed Abd-al-Rahman Barker. If you enjoyed them, I highly suggest his books Flamesong and The Man of Gold. Barker is a retired professor of Urudu and South Asian studies. The books are based on his Empire of the Petal Throne RPG world Tekumel. Tekumel is largely based on Indian, Arabic, Persian, and other non-Western cultures, and is IMHO even more richly detailed than Middle Earth.
:::runs from Tolken fan lynch mob:::

Jessica Amanda Salmonson’s Ou Lu Khen & the Beautiful Madwoman is also very good. It’s a Indochinese/Cambodian fantasy.

Glen Cook’s ‘Black Company’ series features several major dark skinned “African” and Asian characters. Additionally the bulk of the stories (the ‘Books of the South’ and ‘the Glittering Stone’) take place in a Asian based setting, primarily Indian with a dash of Indochina thrown in for fun.

36

I don’t think anyone else has mentioned The Day of the Drones by A.M. Lightner. It’s a “post apocalyptic” novel, set in Africa, and told in the first person by a teenage girl. So far as her people know(they are black) they are the only survivors of the collapse. The book turns on race, and what happens when they find out they aren’t actually alone in the world. Great book, I highly recommend it. Would make a good movie.

37

Now that the original topic seems settled (write what you know)…

A very good example is ‘Vixen’ by Hoa Pham - an excellent novel about a Vietnamese fox-fairy living in suburban Australia.

Something that occurred to me while reading the posts about ‘perspective’ - who is familiar with MacDonald Frazer’s ‘Flashman’ series? Not exactly fantasy, but each novel tells about an unfamiliar (to the Anglo reader) time & place in great detail. The key here, is that the narrative perspective is supplied by the title character - a vicious racist, sexist all-round bastard. The reader’s experience of say, the Forbidden City and its inhabitants is curiously hightened by having to read between the lines of the thoroughly predjudiced narrator.

I think what I’m trying to say is that if I’m going to read exposition I’d like it to have a little more bite than ‘what colour-code is this land, old crone?’

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Piffle. Esther Friesner does it, as does Christopher Stasheff (the Wizard in Rhyme series in particular). Jan Linskold touches on it in the novels of the Athanor. Nancy Collins does it in the Sonja Blue books, as does Alan Dean Foster in “Into the Out Of”.

Oh, and the Urban Faerie authors…Charles de Lindt tends to be mostly European, but involves other mythos’ as well, as does Mercedes Lackey in the Tales of the SERRAted Edge (specifically Chrome Circle), and Tom Deitz as well.

If you can find it, the Book of Wirrun Trilogy by Patricia Wrightson is EXCELLENT. It is Australian mythology, and it is too cool. The titles are “The Ice is Coming”, “Dark Bright Water”, and “Journey Behind the Wind”.

So there.

I’m not a big fan of Charles Sheffield’s sci-fi work, but his short story series in the early Sword and Sorceress collections about Dossouye, the Dahomey warrior is also excellent. In fact, the Sword and Sorceress collections often feature cultural and ethnic minorities - probably because it’s easier to get away with an unfamiliar mythos in the context of a short story, as opposed to sustaining it over a whole book.

Oh, and Yue? Try the Barry Hughart and Jessica Amanda Salmonson (and the Sasha Miller - Ladylord was really good) books mentioned in this thread. Just for some headspace, y’know. Uhm, if you do write and publish the stories you speak of, I will buy them…The Boy Who Drew Cats has been a favorite story of mine since I was about four or five.

Erp. I just realized I have no idea where I read the stories of Susano, or eep…a legendary travelling Chinese judge whose name I can’t recall…I have to go paw through Dad’s books out at the cabin again…

There are some decent (IMHO) prose translations of the Ramayana and the Mahabharata out there, I can’t remember the editions I read (because I was twelve or so, gimme a break).

39

IIRC Fred Pohl’s Black Star Rising features an Anglo protagonist in a decidedly non-Anglo society (after the US has been conquered by China).

But the great granddaddy of all fantasy novels has a completely non-Anglo cast. 1001 Nights, anyone?

40

Err, how? Do the rules just work differently in different places? Or for different people? I can’t see how you can do this without one side or another’s mythology getting slighted. Going back to the ghosts fearing spit, how do you rationalize the way that works in Asia (or your Asia-analogue) but not in the Western-type place?*

I’m sure its possible to juggle mythology, but its easier to just ignore it and create an all-white world, so the majority of fantasy is going to take the cheap way out. Not a good thing, IMHO, but an answer to the question of the OP.

I will look around for the books mentioned here, but my local bookstore is limited. Vermont doesn’t like big chain stores, which is super, until you want a Barnes and Nobles. grumble

–John
*Actually I can see a solution to this quite easily, its the same thing used in modern vampire novels: if the magical creature thinks something will hurt it, it will. But that requires thought.