I wasn’t present at the following situation, but I will probably be faced with it in the relatively near future, and I’m looking for advice from fellow Dopers on how to handle it politely. It’s a good thing I’ll have advance warning, because … well, we’ll get to that.
Some extended family members we haven’t had much contact with were hosting the annual Christmas get-together this year. The father of the household is a Christian “Minister” (by which I assume the person recounting these events meant Baptist minister, but I don’t know that for sure). He wanted to say grace before the meal. In and of itself, no member of my atheist family (myself included) would be bothered by this. We work harder than usual to respect everyone’s religious traditions, and have been present during the saying of grace many, many times without incident or concern.
Where this particular occasion got sticky was when he bellowed at everyone that he would not say grace until everyone’s hands were folded and heads were bowed to his (the minister’s) satisfaction, because otherwise, the people present weren’t “honoring God.” The meal was delayed by several minutes until he was satisfied. The incident must have been pretty ugly, because even some of the devout Catholics present were made uncomfortable by his behavior.
As far as I’m concerned, it’s the host’s responsibility to make his/her guests feel comfortable, and his bellowing crossed the line right there. However, crying foul at his behavior isn’t going to address the practical problem that’s at hand. I doubt he cares one way or another that not all the people present share his beliefs, and he’s certainly not going to change his behavior when the same situation presents itself at the next family gathering. It’s up to me - and the rest of my family - to determine how best to handle the situation, or whether not to attend next time.
In the collective wisdom of the Dope, what do you suggest we do? How do you handle situations where you wish to be polite, but are asked, at a social gathering, for signs of faith in a religion you don’t believe in?
When are these kind of Christians going to realize this drives people away rather than bringing them into the fold?
I would hope this is an exception. Most of the time when I am expected to follow some religious rites, I just do them. I am not so vehemently against things that it stops me. I’ve eaten the bread and drunk the wine. I put stuff in the *havan * if asked to. It doesn’t hurt me, and it makes the other people feel good.
I have no reason to pray (talk to myself?) but I do bow my head respectfully. And you know, I give thanks for the things I have - just to the people who have actually given me those things.
Wow. I firmly believe that the best any pray-er can hope for is for the present company to be quiet for a few minutes. Demanding that people to fold their hands and bow their heads is just wrong. My family joins hands around the table for prayer, how does this “honor G-d” any less?
Still, it sounds like you will have to make up your mind whether or not you will knuckle under if you are a guest in this inhospitable host’s home. Mimicking the behavior of “the faithful” is like calling someone else’s mother “Mom”, IMHO.
after the bellowing, it would have been an excellent time to say quietly, " Huh. that is the first time I’ve ever gotten indigestion before actually eating the food."
I have no problem with people saying grace, and they usually have no problem with me not saying it. If someone snapped off at me like that though, I would tell them some things not fit for print here, and head to the nearest IHOP.
I agree with the other posters – I’d have gotten up, shook the dust off my feet after politely informing the putz just why I was doing so, and left.
My family are all deeply religious folk of various Christian stripes.
Personally, I left church back in middle school, and now count myself as mainly agnostic. My family still says grace at meals, and I just sit quietly. What would you have me rather do – insist that they not say grace around me, thus stepping on their beliefs?
I don’t pray. When others are praying I don’t interrupt them, but I don’t pray, and I don’t do anything that would lead others to think I pray – that is, I don’t “pass.” Had this happened to me, I would have just begun eating if the food were on the table. If it weren’t, I’d just leave.
In my experience as a guest, hosts accustomed to saying grace before meals aren’t used to making allowances for people who have different customs (even different ways of saying grace!). So the polite thing to do, I guess, is to go along with it - hold hands 'round the table, bow your head or whatever. A little deference doesn’t hurt.
I thank God before every meal in my own way, depending on the situation.
If we’re in my house and I’m hosting a large, sit-down type meal I’m going to say grace aloud. And everyone present is going to be quiet, I could care less if they bow their heards, close their eyes, lock their fingers, et cetera. But if they start eating before I’m done or don’t respect my very brief desire for silence then I’d probably ask them to leave.
If I’m at someone elses home I inwardly say my thanks and that’s the end of it. This method is no better or worse than any other, God could care less if your eyes are closed or whatever in my opinion.
The only thing I ask is that if it’s in my home people respect me as host and remain quiet for the duration of the prayer. I don’t ask that they pray or even recognize the prayer.
Those of you who say you would leave if bellowed at to say grace “properly,” it is great that you wouldn’t take this display of belligerence from a host. Such a host would definitely be in the wrong, IMHO.
But for the sake of avoiding even more family conflict (which could end up having months or years of implications for OTHER family members, whether you care or not), storming out to the local Fuddrucker’s isn’t always possible. A lot of the time, extended relatives are just jerks, and we’re forced to grin and bear their loutishness during the holidays for the sake of “family unity,” or out of respect to parents or whatever. As great as it would be to tell that guy off in front of everyone or throw a pie in his face, it usually isn’t an option. That’s why these sorts of relatives are best avoided if at all possible, and stressful family gatherings should be few and far between. I’ve always felt that extended family is just a bunch of people you get stuck with, and it’s not like you have to be friends with them if they’re unworthy. Better to grit your teeth, bow your head (possibly while muttering curses under your breath), choke down your food, and just laugh about those idiots on the drive home, while swearing with your closer family members that you’ll never subject yourselves to that treatment again.
I don’t think you’re being unreasonable at all, but the host in the OP’s story definitely is. You are just asking for some respect in your own home, after providing a meal to a bunch of people. I can get behind that. But you’re not being a boor about it, from the sound of it.
I’d *like *to believe I’d make a righteous and dramatic exit, but in reality, my reaction would be more like Big Bad Voodoo Lou’s. In my case, it wouldn’t be to make the idiot Minister happy, but to keep the rest of the family happy.
My own meal blessing practices are much like that of Martin Hyde. If we’re at my Lutheran grandmother’s house, I bend my head and say “Amen” when we’re done. If we’re at my house, Grandma helps me make up the Spirit Plate to leave out for the Ancestors. We both know we’re doing what connects each of us to the Divine in our own way, and that He/She/It/They don’t care what form it takes. If we’re at my atheist mother’s, someone will usually say a thank you with a glass of wine raised, as in a toast. Those who feel the need for Grace are appeased, and the atheists are free to view it as a toast, or a wish for happiness.
When I’m dining at the home of a religious family who says grace before the meal, I bow my head out of respect for their religious beliefs, but don’t fold my hands or say “Amen” or anything.
This guy went way, way over the line. As soon as he bellowed, I would’ve giggled. Then I probably would’ve said, “I’m afraid you’ll be waiting a long time, then, dear, and I’m not going to let my dinner get cold waiting.” Then I would’ve started to eat.
Well, I can’t imagine this particular situation occuring in my almost totally secular family (my bro and his wife are Buddists, but that’s it); however, if I was at anyone’s house and they started bellowing at me, I’m pretty sure I would leave, regardless of what they were yelling about.
Honestly, I don’t need to be yelled at by anyone, for anything, let alone for not appropriately bowing my head for a custom that I don’t believe in or share.
I’m not trying to be a jerk, but I see a contradictionb between these two statements:
And:
By insisting that they refrain from eating, even though it doesn’t dirsturb the prayer, aren’t you insisting that they recognize it? Likewise, if guests at the end of the table were quietly talking, how would it affect your communication with God? (After all, isn’t that what prayer is: a direct conversation with the Allmighty, not a ceremony which requires all present to remain still and silent for effecacy?)
Now, don’t get me wrong, I think it would be very rude for a guest to talk or eat, but primarily for the reasons that I was always taught not to eat before the host begins to, and not to speak when all are silent.
However, it seems to me that you are insisting on a form of group participation simply because you consider the prayer a significant moment, not for reasons of ettiquette.
My parents do expect everyone to be silent and refrain from eating until after the prayer is over. I don’t see that as group participation or anything. You don’t have to bow your heads, close your eyes, or even pay attention. You can daydream, plan your grocery list, contemplate how silly my parents are, or whatever. You just have to be silent for a short time. Maybe if the table is very large you won’t hear someone at the other end eating or having a conversation, but we don’t have such large spaces.
Of course, if my grandmother’s praying that’s another story. The woman prays for an eternity. There was one thanksgiving where she was droning on with her prayer for so long that the dog stood up on his hind legs and started munching on the side dishes while she prattled on. My mother got up, shooed away the dog, and threw away the dog-bitten side dishes–all while my grandmother kept on praying, completely unaware! (It helps that she’s almost totally deaf now and always closes her eyes while praying.) Expecting someone to sit through a prayer like that is probably a bit much! As is the situation in the OP.
I don’t know how to handle it without causing a family squabble. Is there anyway you can tell him ahead of time that you’re more than willing to stay quiet and respectful during the prayer but you should not be expected to bow, close your eyes, and hold your hands in his perscribed manner? Not sure what your relationship is with him or how he would take it.