Etiquette of saying grace at meals

In My Humble Opinion
21

Slight tangent; when I was in high school, I volunteered to pack meals for the homeless. I didn’t realize the activity was being conducted through Willow Creek, the local Meg-Lo-Church until I’d already shown up, and I didn’t even really think much of it. I mean, different religion than mine or not, the homeless have still gotta eat, y’know? After about an hour or two of packing meals, we were going to break to get dinner. Beforehand, they wanted to everyone to join hands and pray.

Now, I’ve never been cool with prayer in public. Matthew 6:6 and all that. It just strikes me as insincere and pretentious, and it’s not my thing. Unfortunately, no one could leave until the leaders did, and they were the ones standing near me. I was trapped, the only person in the room who was not praying, getting some weird looks, and feeling very much out of sorts.

Then, suddenly, my former math teacher–who happened to be there–comes over and stands with me, also not praying. I suddenly didn’t feel so totally alone, especially since I knew for a fact that he was a fairly devout Christian, and probably wouldn’t have had a problem praying. I’ll tell you, out of all the things I’ve seen, that’s one of the things that’s come closest to bringing this pagan chickie to Christ. It was a kind gesture that didn’t involve staring or cajoling to do something I simply wasn’t comfortable doing. It was selfless. Almost a quarter of my lifetime later, I still remember it vividly.

The pastor in question, however, would have sent me off screaming. Or, more likely, I would have said something like, “I don’t feel that praying in public is right for me,” and left it at that (as I did at that event back in high school). If he pressed, I would either give him the Biblical cite (if I was feeling especially ornery), or I would simply have departed from the table. There wouldn’t have been any use in creating a scene, and I’d rather he enjoy his dinner than have us both mad and hungry. Talking or eating, however, would strike me as extremely rude. Offering libations to Bacchus would’ve been right out, too ;).

22

That is one rude man. I’d likely have stayed, but found an opportunity afterwards to quietly take him aside and express that he’d made me really uncomfortable.

My mother’s family is pretty much all devoutly Catholic (with a teeny Methodist population sprinkled in), and they say grace before dinner every night. When we’re visiting, my immediate family and I sit, quietly, eyes down, while they pray. No biggie.

My parents light sabbath candles every Friday night. When I’m actually at home and home for dinner on a Friday night, my father gets upset if I don’t at least mouth along with the prayers, so I do so. It’s rude on his part, but there’s a long-running Issue there, and he gets a slight exception, since he’s my father.

Anyone who yells at you because you’re not observing his prayer the way he wants you to is just a dick.

23

Just out of curiosity, what would you do if you were invited to someones house and he asked you to remain quiet while he said he was so glad there was no god to take credit for everything and thanked the farmers who worked so hard to grow the food with their own hands.

24

I’ll normally bow my head or whatever, but I won’t join in. In a situation like the one described by the OP, I would probably just grit my teeth and bear it- I’m not one for making scenes.

25

I know you asked Martin, and I’m not answering for him/her, but for me. I’d be most interested in hearing how others handle it.

Like I said in my post earlier, when we’re at my atheist mom’s house, someone, sometimes she, more often Grandma (who says a traditional grace at her own house), will raise a glass and say something like, “Thank you all for being here, so we can share this food and this time together. We are truly blessed to have one another, and to have this wonderful meal.” Then the rest of us raise glasses and clink and smile and it’s all good. No mention of God is made or needed.

In your example, I’d smile, and nod my head and add an internal, “And thank you, Lord and Lady, for this food and this time with my friends and loved ones, and for giving us all different eyes through which we see the world.” I see no need to make anyone feel uncomfortable by saying it out loud, but it does get said in my own head.

In my own meal blessings, I do offer thanks and ask blessings for the farmers, as well as the animal and plants we’re eating, the cooks, the dishwashers and the Divine. I think it’s only fair to give credit where credit is due! :slight_smile:

26

There is only one golden rule. When in someone elses house obey their rules. The guy was over the top but I would have shut my eyes and gone along with the game (I’m an atheist).

I KNOW I don’t believe there is a god, this is something I believe to be true. I also know tis is MY truth. My truth does not prevent me from respecting anyone elses truth.

If they come to dinner at my house they will have to live with not saying grace, when I’m in their house I will respect their right to say grace.

Anyone who bellows at guests is just a rude wanker.

27

Some godly acts cause bystanders to feel uncomfortable, therefore anything that makes bystanders uncomfortable is godly. Simple, isn’t it?

28

I’m in total agreement with Angel of the Lord about this. My interpretation of the Matthew passage she cited is also pretty much, Don’t be a big show-off about it when you pray; do your praying in in private.

I am a Christian and I’m equally surprised by my fellows who use grace for the odd power trip. My father-in-law knows that we can’t start eating until he says his Catholic grace so he takes full advantage of his captive audience to tell long boring jokes and stories before he prays. After watching a few of my good company dinners grow cold, I’ve started serving only the salad until after his big show has ended.

The minister in the OP seems so totally out of line I can only guess that he was bringing to the table (heh) some baggage over past meals where people talked and ate during grace, and he had seen it as an affront to God. Not that I’m excusing him – I would have clenched my laced fingers while steam rose over my bowed head.

29

This isn’t about honoring God, nor about respecting the host. This is about the host being on a power trip and asserting that his way is right, and any deviation from it is wrong. Mere respect was not sufficient. Only acquiescence would do.

Practically speaking, with it being a family gathering, going along would probably be a better choice than fighting it out at the dinner table. I would go for taking him aside after dinner and taking him to task for his juvenile, ungodly display.

30

I have a serious problem with authority when it’s done as a way of asserting power over me. I would probably have gone into a stare down with him until either he gave up or I decided to walk away from the table. In no way would I have acquiesed.

31

Oh, as for handling it in the future, you could either quote that bible verse mentioned above, or take him to task for yelling at guests:

“Your behavior toward your guests, regardless of your beliefs on honoring your god, is appalling and uncouth. You will not speak to me in that manner ever again.” Should be said quietly and firmly, with no hint of a smile as you stare him straight in the eye. He sounds like a bully, and they are usually frightened into submission by people who stand up for themselves. If that doesn’t work, walk away from table.

32

I would likely do as I have done in the past when confronted with such a situation. I would state that I am an atheist and that I am not willing to dine in their home under false pretences. If they would rather I leave, I am willing to do that.

I’ve never had anyone push me any further, but if they did, I would leave.

And it really has nothing to do with religion. If I’m at someone’s house, I will be a good guest up to the point where I get uncomfortable. At that point, it makes more sense for me to leave and stop burdening everyone with that discomfort.

33

The behavior displayed by the minister was, IMHO, inexcuseable. In short, a guest must be respectful of the host’s customs/ceremonies, but should not be made to participate in them against their will.

Example:

If I invite a non-Jewish guest to my house for a Shabbos meal, I would expect him/her to stand silently and respectfully while kiddush was being said. I would not require them to answer “Amen” nor would I require them to drink the wine (no one other than the person saying kiddush is required to drink from the wine anyway).

Likewise, when we get up to wash for hamotzie (according to Jewish law, one must wash one’s hands before eating bread), I would again expect the guest to respectfully allow everyone to wash their hands and to allow me to make the blessing before partaking. He does not need to answer “Amen” or even wash his hands, but he does have to respect our customs. The same would apply to the birchas hamazon (Grace After Meals). But in no way would I force (or even expect) a guest to adhere to our laws and customs.

Zev Steinhardt

34

Many thanks to everyone who has taken the time to respond with such well-thought out replies. I’m a little relieved that my gut-level reaction - to politely excuse myself from the table - isn’t as far off base as I thought it might be. I’m never quite sure which is less disrespectful to religion - sitting quietly without participating while others perform their ritual, or participating in a ritual which I don’t believe in. I’ve always leaned toward non-participation (both out of respect for those for whom the ritual does have religious significance, and self-respect for not participating in something important I don’t agree with), and think that’s what I’ll continue to do in the future.

35

Coffee on the monitor. And Mini!Cthulhu taking a nose (tentacle-an?) dive off the monitor onto my keyboard.

Thanks a lot, CynicalGabe!

36

Wow, after reading this I realize just how big a bullet I’ve dodged with my family over the past few years. My dad got the old-time religion about ten years ago, got super-involved with his church, the whole deal. Stopped short of actively proselytising (sp?) but when I was there for Christmas he would insist everyone hold hands and bow heads for grace. My atheist self went along with it the first year. The second year I arranged for my main course to take a few extra minutes (not only a heathen but a vegetarian) so that the praying could be taken care of while I was still in the kitchen. Didn’t work; Dad held up the meal until I came in and sat at the table. I was extremely angry over feeling coerced to participate in a ritual which was for me meaningless. Third year Christmas dinner was at my place and as part of an overall pre-visit tension I emailed my dad that grace would not be said at my table; “those who wish to give thanks may do so at the motel or in the van on the way over.” Even though it was not the most delicately worded statement (and I apologized for the bluntness but not the sentiment later) it did the trick and there was no grace at my table. last year and this year he’s finally clear on the notion that the extra time it takes me in the kitchen is his cue to fire up the praying while I’m out of the room. He’ll then usually say a few secular words as a toast when I’m at the table, which is very cool.

I come to find out he’s lost quite a bit of that old-time religion. Still a believer but not into the whole church thing. He only goes now to keep my mother company.

37

If I had been at the dinner in the OP, I would have been quiet and polite when the minister said grace, but I would not have participated by folding my hands and bowing my head. Asking that I respect his religious observance while in his home is reasonable. Asking if I would like to participate would be acceptable. Requesting me to participate would be impolite. Requiring my participation in a religious observance as a condition of having dinner would be extraordinarily rude, and I would have refused, in a polite and ladylike manner.

If Mrs. Six and I happen to have guests (usually in the form of drop-ins) when we’re having our tea ceremony (a Korean form of spiritual observance), all we ask of guests is that they do not disturb us for the time that it takes. We have on occasion had people ask if they could join us, and they were welcome to do so. We also have had guests ask if we could do it so they could watch, and politely declined. We wouldn’t dream of telling someone they had to participate as a condition for anything they would be doing at our home.

38

But what if you were of a different religion, and were similarily asked to bow your head to an assumedly false god?

39

I worked on a moshav in Israel for 6 mths, I went to dinner at the families house nearly every week for Shabat (sp ?). I was a visitor in their house. I listened to the prayers and sipped the wine and ate the bread.

Perhaps if I had a strong faith myself I would have felt differently but to me it was all about respect and manners.

40

It’s good to see that, while we have many people on the board that either aren’t believers or aren’t religious, everyone seems to be fairly respectful of those who do partake in their respective rites. It gives a bad name to everyone, believers and not, when a believer doesn’t return the favor and obliges non-believers to partake against their will.

Chances are good if he’s a Baptist, and decent if he’s not (he seems rather old-fashioned) he’s considered the “head” of his household. As the head of a household, most of us would agree he has the obligation, more than anyone else, to not alienate his guests. After all, why invite people over if you’re just going to piss them off and make them want to leave?