The idea of China overtaking the US in economy or innovation didn’t bother anyone when we believed economic development would inevitably lead to liberalisation. But it hasn’t. Even Trump’s America is far ahead of China in civil rights; the deportations and other things happening in the US now are shocking because they are not normal.
Wanting the US to remain top dog in these circumstances is entirely rational, just as it was rational to oppose communism during the cold war - communist governments killed millions of their own citizens, and had to build walls to keep people in, not out.
It doesn’t make much sense for the US to allow Putin to take over European countries in the hope of rebuilding the USSR, either. But when has Trump ever had any sense?
In the post you quoted, a hypothetical American is reacting to the fact “that world hates America” presumably referring to the American government acting in the world. There was never any “notion of collective guilt”. You put that in yourself.
But, as always, the important thing is that your feelings were hurt and we’ll have to deal with that before we address the fact that the most powerful nation on Earth is going fascist.
We’re two peas in a pod DT, but I have to disagree with you on this one
This is a US that supports authoritarians around the world; Putin, Orban, Erdogan.
Heck, as I’ve pointed out elsewhere, all the things we’d most criticize China for is exactly what MAGA wants to do: blocking criticism of government, government approved news, “re-education” camps, coveting a neighbour’s territory, repression of gay / trans.
And frankly even during previous Democratic administrations there was a lean towards the likes of Saudi Arabia (obviously now intensified), and lack of condemnation of Israel.
Values aren’t the reason for China being the antagonist to the US.
I should also be clear that I am not in the position of wanting China or anyone else being “top dog”. I think it’s inevitable for the world to be more multilateral in the 21st century and I would hope we can do this in a peaceful way.
Ok, it might be too optimistic, but I think it’s better than some who desire conflict to maintain hegemony.
You lot want it both ways. You see the group,not the person; you believe the individual is guilty for what the (his own?) group does, while at the same time you consider the group to be the important entity and the unique person, his or her views and voice, doesn’t matter except when it comes time for him to be punished for what group he “belongs” to.
What fascism lives for and lives on are cowardice and armed conformity-mindedness, of which collective guilt is a major underlying idea.
What tore it for me was Trump’s second election. One could have been an aberration but again? Something is seriously wrong, especially since the same asshole as before and not one of the sycophants. It’ll be at least a generation before any rational diplomat or country leader can trust the US to hold up its end of any treaty or obligation.
Trying to avoid some of the near-personal attacks, but want to focus on the OP.
Honestly, I agree with the premise, that Europe can’t trust the US anymore. But, for reasons not explicitly mentioned so far. Because, while the nations of Europe had better and worse relations with the US under various administrations, there was rarely the doubt that the US would abide by their treaties and pacts. Granted, some would have been far more grudging than others, and such assistance and aid would have been less than merited. But Trump has proven that treaties, law, and the US Constitution are nothing more than paper.
And those that very little has been done effectively to call him out on that.
We as a nation have fallen quite far down the slippery slope of abandonment of the rule of law. And it’s if anything (IMHO) getting worse. Each day brings new violations, and the SCOTUS and Congress aren’t doing much to effectively take them to task. We are, or are at least approaching, the status of Russia (early during Putin) or Turkey, and trying to prove our exceptionalism by going farther and faster.
This is above and beyond the ability of the non-elected idiots being able to keep information safe and secure.
On the other hand… Europe in general, as well as nearly every nation under the sun has a long history of working with people/nations/administrations it doesn’t trust. See Europe’s prior long reliance on Russian oil. Does the US currently offer anything that Europe values enough to sup with us with a long spoon? Probable, but trust is unlikely, however not required for some degree of cooperation. I can very easily see Europe playing the US, China and Russia against each other and putting their interests first. With the personalities in charge of the three mentioned nations, it might even be easy. Meanwhile, they should put themselves first, which of course is their duty towards their citizens.
Naomi Shulman:
“Nice people made the best Nazis. My mom grew up next to them. They got along, refused to make waves, looked the other way when things got ugly and focused on happier things than ‘politics’. They were lovely people who turned their heads as their neighbors were dragged away. You know who weren’t nice people? Resisters.”
A person, of any nationality, being treated badly because of whatever group they are seen as, and the mindset that that person should suffer because of their group associations, is the actual important aspect here. That the group sees one person as just part of their nation and hates that person because of the collective, is just what I’m talking about, it’s ugly and should be wiped out even when it has a lot of adherents. You accuse me of bringing up the notion of collective guilt while it’s you inherent, and apparent, as an implied lever of the argument. You imply that the collective guilt is already there, and I don’t think you have the right or authority to lay said guilt on anyone beyond yourself. You want to feel guilty about shit you didn’t do? Fine, but keep your nasty kale on your own damned plate.
Let’s see, invading Greenland, invading Canada, invading Panama, spreading their virulent form of Christofascism, supporting Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and undermining democracy on a global scale.
An example of how many Americans are enabling the rise of fascism. How to deal with Trump’s aggression? Pretend it doesn’t exist! That solves everything.
Only slightly less productive than fantasizing about acts of war that will never happen and are not in any way a potential course of action, then screaming into the dark for a hero to protect us from an invented catastrophe. There is no indication that President Trump has ever even considered invading Canada. Every year when people talk about PR becoming the 51st State, none of the people in favor of it are accused of supporting an invasion to make it happen. Saying Canada should become a state doesn’t equate to “I’m going to invade Canada.” Unless Trump says it. Then we catastrophize it.
Oh please, it’s standard dictator-speak for wanting to conquer a neighbor. Talk like it’s already a part of the dictatorship while making threatening actions towards it, just like Trump has. And it’s not like there’s any other way it would become the “51st state”.
It was always about projecting US power. I think there were some US leaders who had good intentions in mind, believing they were protecting Western Europe from an advancing Soviet Empire and wanting to liberate the Eastern states in Moscow’s grasp.
I personally don’t think it’s wrong for a sitting US president to say maybe we should lighten our footprint in Europe a bit. It’s okay to say, Don’t worry, we won’t just abandon y’all, and we’ll do trade with you, and we’ll still sign some newer agreement that stipulates if you’re really, truly in danger, we’ll defend you.
But NATO had, in my respectful opinion, outlived its usefulness. I know I’ll take incoming for this, but NATO (well, really the US more than NATO) expansion provoked Moscow.
That being said, the speed at which the unwind is being done and the incredibly insulting tone that MAGA strikes in doing it, is not the way to lighten the footprint.
Suppose MAGA pressures Denmark and Greenland into accepting a deal in which the US buys Greenland and makes it a US territory. Would that change your appraisal of the current situation regarding Canada then?
I admit I did assign collective guilt to “American dissenters who hear that the rest of the world hates America and whose first concern is that they, personally, have been unfairly accused” but fragility is not a nationality. It would be wrong to blame someone for what their country does but if we can’t object to people’s actions and beliefs then there’s nothing to talk about.
