I really and truly don’t understand how so many Europeans (and yes, I mean you British, too, you’re not weaseling out of this) can accept such restrictions from their government. I understand the historical causes, I think, that America was founded on the idea of “stop shoving me around, Mr. Bureaucrat”, and Europe still has monarchies in some cases, but I just DO NOT understand how a free people could put up with things like being told that they couldn’t fly the national flag.
For that matter, even with the awful history of Germany, I’m a little dodgy on the Nazi party being outlawed, or making it illegal to be a holocaust denier. Those things are just unthinkable here.
Being Trash myself, I’d like to point out that the rules on this kind of stuff vary wildly from country to country. In Denmark (where I happen to be from) the flag is flown with the flimsiest of excuses. (A town-wide sale ? Line the streets with flagpoles! The Prince consort’s birthday ? Raise the flag!)
As for what free people can put up with, you’d be surprised. Not that I want to turn this into (another) US-Euro pissing contest, but I for one was flabbergasted to read that sodomy laws (as in, the law will tell you what you can put where in your own bedroom) were in effect in the US as recently as they were. It comes down to what you’re used to.
Any jurisdiction will have its quirky laws that noone cares to muck around with until some landmark case demonstrates their silliness.
From my perspective the flag is just a rectangle of fabric.
And to cut a long story short Brits (I can’t speak for europeans) are (or are traditionally, but it’s changing) vert tolerant people, putitng up with crap service crap food, crap laws.
I think it’s because we’re used to it. We are used to crap so we accept it and move on.
It amazes me how much Americans care about their particular rectangle of fabric, but I have nothing against it.
It occurs to me that unreasonably invasive laws in America are based on a narrow view of morality run amok, whereas unreasonably invasive laws in Europe are based on a broad view of community interest run amok.
I wouldn’t be surprised in Denmark! That is one cool place to live. I’ve never seen people more relaxed and kind. I wish the rest of us could strike such a good balance.
But Spogga’s assertion that in Britain one needs permission to fly the flag is false. You should have been here last summer, during the World Cup (Soccer tournament) - couldn’t move for flags. Most of them the English flag as opposed to the Union Jack, but there were plenty of those too.
caveman’s summary, in all its conciseness, is pretty close to the mark IMHO.
Generally speaking, Europeans are not so touchy about so-called basic freedoms, as long as there is a proper justification for a limitation. The Rome Treaty on Human Rights lists lots of basic freedoms, most of them with the proviso that these can be limited by law. So we’re used to discuss specific limitations to rights and freedoms. Naturally such discussions will frequently invoke the public interest.
Americans OTOH seem to be used to discuss freedoms as completely inviolable. AFAIK this is caused by a history of specific states having oppressive laws (like the sodomy law), which then are struck down by SCOTUS as being contrary to some constitutional right. Hence you’d be more likely to have a legal debate on the extent of specific freedoms, than a political debate about the public interest.
The difference is hence partly caused by a difference in legal and political reasoning. I can’t see why the one is intrinsically more oppressive than the other.
This actually begins to look more like a GD than an IMHO thing. IMHO, of course.
I’m not sure that is is illegal to fly the union jack. According to this site it is not illegal to fly the union jack on land, but it is at sea, as that use is reserved for the Royal Navy.
Anyway, to answer your question - i personally can accept that restriction because it doesn’t affect me. I’ve never flown the flag, and i have no desire to do so. I think my views are probably shared by a majority of the UK. If the majority view was different, and people did want to fly flags then i think you’d see the law changed quite quickly.
You seem to imply though that you think Europeans have a lot more restrictions on their freedoms than Americans. Maybe you’d care to elaborate on that, give some examples etc? I personally don’t think i’d be more free in the US than i am in the UK.
Just another shitload of reasons why Merica is the best damn country in the world, flawed, but by far the best…
Oh, and we gots AC too! (die frenchies DIE!!!, ha, ha, ha!)
Planet of the Shapes : I mean things like the restrictions on free speech that I hear about, even in Britain (the government telling the press what they can print, in some cases), flatly outlawing certain political views, outlawing being an idiot and calling someone racial slurs, this sort of thing.
Some of these I’ve gotten from Germany, but my impression is that there are still some differences across Europe in general.
One of the reasons the U.S. Constitution has the second amendment, about guns, is the thought that an armed populace is not at the mercy of the army. I understand that there are reasons guns are restricted, and that many people like it that way, but it still gives me the creeps a bit, considering how many times in history a government has controlled its people through brute force.
I don’t know where you get the idea that the Government of the UK tells the press what to print and not what to print . That is certainly not the case. The only restrictions would be because of security reasons and also the reporting of criminal cases is restricted . This is mainly to ensure that the defendant gets a fair trial and the jurors are notbombarded with a lot of half truths and speculation. This asid we certainly have a free press in the UK.
Yes, but I though that the communist party was illegal in the USA. Correct me if I´m wrong.
And british laws don´t apply in the whole Europe, you see?
As for my country I´m not sure, but I think it´s ok if you put a flag in your house, not that most people do it anyway (except on national celebrations).
Y’know, I’m old enough to remember the Silver Jubilee celebrations in 1977, and all I can say is, if it was illegal to fly the Union Jack, those street parties would have been followed by a wave of mass arrests the like of which the world has never seen.
I suppose planning permission might come into things sometimes. If I were to erect a giant flagpole bearing the Union Jack, illuminated during the hours of darkness and accompanied by a stereo system playing “Rule Britannia” on a closed tape loop, I suspect my neighbours would call in the city council to curb my patriotic fervour. But I suspect you have zoning regulations in the US, too. (In theory, the College of Arms has some say in the display of flags, too, but in practice it has no powers of enforcement, as was demonstrated a few years ago when the then Archbishop of Canterbury flew some vexillological abomination on top of Lambeth Palace.)
As for freedom of the press: there are (reasonable) restrictions on what may or may not be reported in a sub judice criminal case, and the Government may apply for facts not to be disclosed in security matters (used to be called a “D” notice, but I don’t know if it still is). However, in general, the only restraint on the press is through the Press Complaints Commission, which is an internal, industry, body not answerable to the government. In fact, what with the likes of Rupert Murdoch, it could be argued that the press has more undue influence on the government than vice versa.
Well, it wasn’t illegal, but McCarthy managed to make defacto illegal for a while there. You would probably be fired if it became public, even if your job had nothing to do with government work. IIRC.