Evangelical Atheists Have A God Complex

[John_Stamos_Left_Ear]

There’s a thread that asks a rather benign question in Great Debates now - Does it make sense to send kids to Sunday school if you aren’t really religious? - which has provoked a few members here into saying the following things:

Really, the only thing Sunday schools do is indoctrinate kids young, before the age of critical thinking. That’s the point - get 'em young, before they can protect themselves.

Because at that age, it’s indoctrination, not “giving them a chance”. They’ll likely believe what they are told without even thinking about it, much less questioning it. By the time they start thinking critically, it’ll be part of their basic worldview, and nearly unshakable - which is the real point of Sunday school IMHO; to turn out good little zombies who believe and do what they are told.

…religion can teach hatred, bigotry, and intolerance, be it for a specific group (ie, Catholicism’s teachings that homosexuality is something evil that must be repressed and punished) or much more generalized (ie, people who believe differently than us are wrong and therefore going to burn in hell).

®eligion has subverted society ( and parents, for that matter ), turning them into tools for it’s propagation; much like a virus.

I do not believe that a society with religion can survive the power of high technology indefinitely. Sooner or later, someone ( or many someones ) with the power to do so will do their best to kill or enslave us all ( which will likely result in the same thing ). It’s not like calls for the end of the world are uncommon from the religious; that’s why that Left Behind series was so popular. It tapped into the fundamentally irrational and malignant nature of religion. Neither are calls for forcing religion on people that rare.

Call me “intolerant” and “extremist” if you want, but it won’t be people like me who launch Armageddon; it will be the believers - after all, even the word is religious. It’s the religious who constantly call for death and tyranny, not me.

Everywhere you go in the world, the more power religion has, the more screwed up everything is. It ruins everything it touches.

Kids are taught religion young because they are vulnerable to it then; if you waited until they were older, I doubt very many would get taken in. Talking bushes and invisible “good” men who never do anything or help anyone are so utterly stupid that an older person would just dismiss them out of hand - unless indoctrinated from extreme youth.

…you are part of a culture trained from childhood to accept the insane, stupid collection of lies and delusions known as religion.

Religion is irrational and destructive; anything that aids or abets it is bad. When those “harmless” people, for example, send in money that is used to hide or defend child molestors, or supress condom use in Africa - they are responsible for plenty of suffering.

Note please that the discussion was not about a group of crazed fundamentalists who are trying to take over the world. This is a thread about sending kids to Sunday School. I know a lot of people here went to Sunday School (or some kind of similar religious instruction) - how many of you were taught to hate? How many of you were given tests on how God hates everyone who doesn’t think like they do? Any hands in the air?

Let’s compare: When you were in the 4th grade, which activity were you more likely to partake in:

a) Drawing a picture of Jesus with your crayons
b) Discussing how abortionists must die

Okay, now then, let’s continue. During Bible study, what scenario was more likely for students:

a) Apply Biblical knowledge of life problems experienced at their age level
b) Discuss Leviticus and why God hates fags

Religion is certainly responsible for a lot of fucked up people and a lot of problems. I feel that the religious right has too much power in this country. I don’t share their views on God, politics, whether this country is “Christian” or not and many other things. I find a lot of things about religion repugnant and those who attempt to legislate their beliefs will be fought tooth and nail by me.

However, I can see that religion also does a lot of good for people. Religious organizations do more charitable work and contributions than most secular organizations. People use religion to help themselves become better people, to help them solidify an ethical code, to help them get through hard times and addictions. They will pray and feel better for it.

You don’t have to agree with them but as long as they don’t try and make me, who gives a shit? If it makes them happy and doesn’t hurt anyone, I don’t care what someone believes in. Why should you? Mind your own fucking business. Be secure enough in your own beliefs that every activity that has even a shred of religiosity in it doesn’t cause you to decide that the sky is falling.

I call them “Evangelical Atheists,” because they - like the fundies who annoy the fuck out many people as well - are convinced that they have Truth and that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong.

The fundie says you’re going to hell; the atheist says you’re biding your time until you “launch Armageddon.” Really, what’s the fucking difference? Both are paranoid, intolerant extremists who only see fear and hate instead of happiness and love.

I am frustrated with the hate-mongering and closed-mindedness and arrogance that they know what is best for everyone that fundies are often guilty of. Yet these evangelical atheists are saying the same things in the same manner. Both are self-righteous to the point of parody at times and both are too pig-headed to even realize it.

It’s true, I guess - you often become what you most despise. Well congrats, militant evangelical atheists - you’ve managed to become just as much of an asshole as the guys you hate. You should be very proud.

Oh, and to those atheists who are not like this, this rant is not for you, just as any rants I have against religious folks who are trying to get Creationism taught in school is not directed at the person with faith who knows the difference between science and their faith. I respect nearly all beliefs and non-beliefs as well.

There are a few things that I draw the line at, however. I don’t respect anyone who preaches violence and I don’t respect people who scream that anyone who doesn’t feel exactly as they do is wrong no matter what side of the spiritual fence they reside on.

And let me end this rant in the most ironic way that I can: Can I get an Amen? :dubious:

[Rune]

Evangelical Atheists suck donkey balls. But I would have liked a name with those individuals behind those quotes. Now I have to track them down myself and write them into my little black book with people slated to be the first against the wall when the theocratic revolution comes. And it is neigh!

[Malacandra]

Neigh? Aren’t you flogging a dead horse there, Rune? Anyway, stick Der Trihs down in your book, he’s responsible for a good many of those excesses and many more besides. It’s just as well for him that, despite being raised to be a good little zombie in his formative years, he managed to retain enough of his intelligence and critical faculties to realize what a crock it all was. Obviously he’s a man in a million and only concerned for the welfare of his less gifted fellows - a bit like the evangelicals who can read a stack of porn and remain uncorrupted themselves, since they’re only exploring the awfulness of it all, but have to protect others.

For myself, I’m sorta thinking I may as well run with that whole pearls-before-swine thing.

[Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup]

I’ve always found “evangelical athiests” to be the ones who didn’t learn enough about religion and are therefore more likely to believe the crap that someone else feeds them about those religions. When someone comes along to validate their confusion by telling them it’s all fake, the evangelical atheist is born, prepared to disabuse everyone else of the notion that any good can come out of the churches and synagogues and mosques because it’s all FAKE, man!

While I admit that exhaustive Bible study, historical research, and exegesis MAY create an atheist, I don’t think it likely that that particular atheist will be as shrill as the professed atheist who is either angry with God, intolerant of religion, or just thrilled he doesn’t HAVE to go to Sunday school any more.

Most of the shrill atheists I’ve met are just as indoctrinated as any Sunday-school graduate I’ve ever met.
(and I don’t know WHAT they teach in those other Sunday schools, but mine never mentioned homosexuals, social events, or ANYTHING even remotely political.)

[Bryan_Ekers]

I don’t get this part of the OP:

The fundie says you’re going to hell; the atheist says you’re biding your time until you “launch Armageddon.” Really, what’s the fucking difference? Both are paranoid, intolerant extremists who only see fear and hate instead of happiness and love.

Doesn’t the source quote indicate that the atheist making the statement fears the “fundie” (I think this term has been debated as borderline hate speech, though I forget what the final determination was) will be the one “launching Armageddon” (igniting global war, I assume), or more specifically, that if Armageddon happens, it will be for religious rather than secular reasons? I think rather than the two viewpoints being identical, it’s more like:

Fundy: God will cast all sinners into hell at Armageddon!
Atheist: Hmm, that sounds kind of nutty to me. I’d better keep my eye on loons like you, just in case you get a chance to do what you think of as God’s work.

It’s okay to say Group A is hostile and Group B is hostile, therefore Groups A and B are hostile, but it’s not fair to say they’re equally hostile, or that their hostilities are equally valid.

[John_Stamos_Left_Ear]

The main thing, Bryan Ekers, is that both groups swear they have the answer and they both have consequences set up for those who they feel are wrong. The fundamentalist feels that if you don’t believe as he or she does that you are going to hell; the evangelical atheist feels that if you do not believe as he or she does that you are a moron who is wasting your life worrying about a fairy tale. Same arrogance, same stubborness, same self-righteousness, only the penalty for daring feel differently than them changes.

[Revenant_Threshold]

I agree with this. I think the operative word is “truth” - fundamentalist religious people are certain they know it, and evangelical athiests are just the same. In other respects they may, and do, differ, but it’s that one thing that I think is the important part - they’re both just so damn sure they’re right, and thus anyone who thinks otherwise is a heathen/damned/moron etc.

[Contrapuntal]

There is no such thing as “evangelical atheists.” The odd atheist may be be on a soapbox now and then, but very few give a damn what others believe, unlike evangelical Christians, for example, who feel it is their duty to convert the heathen. We simply do not want your religion shoved down our throats.

You asked the question, poorly defined as it was. Be prepared to receive the answers.

[Contrapuntal]

I was over hasty. I realize now that you did not ask the question. Please ignore my last remark above, with my apologies.

[Rune]

@Contrapuntal

There is no such thing as “evangelical atheists.”

Ok. Got it. Any other dogmatic statements you want to share with the world?

[Debaser]

I’m an atheist who would really prefer it if some of my fellows would shut the fuck up. People like those quoted in the OP make all of us non-believers look like a bunch of wackos and kooks. I roll my eyes every time the ACLU attacks Christmas or atheists preach hate towards religion.

There are plenty of legitimate concerns about religion that can be discussed. (Catholic Church scandals, and terrorst Muslim fanatics come to mind). However, these things get drowned out by the clutter of such over the top anti-religious rhetoric in much the same way that legitimate concerns about Bush get lost in the endless posts of Reeder like threads.

[Latro]

@Revenant Threshold

they’re both just so damn sure they’re right, and thus anyone who thinks otherwise is a heathen/damned/moron etc.

Difference is…one of them indeed happens to be right.

[davenportavenger]

I think the thing about Sunday school is that by bringing children into a religion and teaching them that it’s a good thing, you open them up to being exposed to bad beliefs later. Right now they might be coloring pictures of Jesus, but that’s only to get them inured to religion in general; once they start going to church for real, then they’ll get exposed to homophobia or be recruited to make bombs for abortion clinics. And because they have been socialized into believing that religion is a good thing, they’ll be less resistant to these beliefs. (Note that this is not my belief per se, just the line of reasoning that I think many of these fundie atheists are following.)

I agree that religious fundies and atheist fundies are almost (though not quite) as shrill as one another. That’s why I’m glad to maybe thank God that I’m an agnostic.

[Rune]

@Latro

Difference is…one of them indeed happens to be right.

Funny. You never stroke me as being so devotedly religious.

[Polycarp]

@Contrapuntal

There is no such thing as “evangelical atheists.” The odd atheist may be be on a soapbox now and then, but very few give a damn what others believe, unlike evangelical Christians, for example, who feel it is their duty to convert the heathen. We simply do not want your religion shoved down our throats.

You asked the question, poorly defined as it was. Be prepared to receive the answers.

I disagree. The majority of atheists, like the majority of Christians and Jews, are quite content to live and let live, to grant to their fellow man the same freedom to judge what’s true and what’s BS as they themselves have exercised.

But every so often, we get someone who shows up, foaming at the mouth, about the intent of all those mercenary evangelists to force everybody into lockstep conformity to their superstitions, etc., etc., ad nauseam.

And they are, quite frankly, just as annoying.

[Malacandra]

@davenportavenger

I think the thing about Sunday school is that by bringing children into a religion and teaching them that it’s a good thing, you open them up to being exposed to bad beliefs later. Right now they might be coloring pictures of Jesus, but that’s only to get them inured to religion in general; once they start going to church for real, then they’ll get exposed to homophobia or be recruited to make bombs for abortion clinics. And because they have been socialized into believing that religion is a good thing, they’ll be less resistant to these beliefs. (Note that this is not my belief per se, just the line of reasoning that I think many of these fundie atheists are following.)

I agree that religious fundies and atheist fundies are almost (though not quite) as shrill as one another. That’s why I’m glad to maybe thank God that I’m an agnostic.

I keep missing the memo. Darn, and I have a pretty fair working knowledge of explosives too. The theory, anyway: I’m uncomfortably aware that the consequences of error when it comes to the practice might be severe.

Anyway, it seems I wasted my time Sunday before last doing a ten-minute slot on the text “Truly I say to you, as you did it to the least of My brothers, you did it to Me” when I could have been burning faggots in effigy or planning suicide bombings on abortion clinics. All that religious indoctrination from Sunday school onwards, and I’m still not worthy to be clued in when the fun stuff starts happening.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@John_Stamos'_Left_Ear

The main thing, Bryan Ekers, is that both groups swear they have the answer and they both have consequences set up for those who they feel are wrong. The fundamentalist feels that if you don’t believe as he or she does that you are going to hell; the evangelical atheist feels that if you do not believe as he or she does that you are a moron who is wasting your life worrying about a fairy tale. Same arrogance, same stubborness, same self-righteousness, only the penalty for daring feel differently than them changes.

Well, what difference does it make what they believe? It’s in their actions that the differences become important, and quite significant. Only a trivially small number of insanely extreme atheists are actively seeking to ban privately-funded religious education, while a much larger number of fundamentalists are just fine with actively seeking to ban the teaching of evolution. These (among others) are the actual “penalties” potentially in play, and the what the fundamentalists have in mind is a lot worse that what the atheists have in mind. I don’t care what the extremists think, I only care how aggressively they’re going to try to make me think it, too.

[Siege]

Interesting. I went to Sunday School throughout my youth and have even taught Sunday School and yet I never became a homophobia or approved of bombing abortion clinics. Indeed, I’m in favor of gay marriage and am firmly politically pro-choice. The last time I taught Sunday School, this time to teenagers, one of them told me she wasn’t actually Episcopalian. Instead, she was into Wicca. Far from trying to show her the error of her ways, after finding out a bit about why she believed what she did, I introduced her to a practicing Wiccan, one you and I both know in real life, Davenportavenger, and to various other new vices including, for a while, this message board. Search the archives for posts by agentfroot.

Does anyone else have a broad brush he or she cares to pick up?

CJ

[Contrapuntal]

@Polycarp

I disagree. The majority of atheists, like the majority of Christians and Jews, are quite content to live and let live, to grant to their fellow man the same freedom to judge what’s true and what’s BS as they themselves have exercised.

But every so often, we get someone who shows up, foaming at the mouth, about the intent of all those mercenary evangelists to force everybody into lockstep conformity to their superstitions, etc., etc., ad nauseam.

And they are, quite frankly, just as annoying.

@Me

The odd atheist may be be on a soapbox now and then,

@Rune

Ok. Got it. Any other dogmatic statements you want to share with the world?

I suppose I reject your assertion that my statement is dogma. Atheism is a response to theism. There were no atheists before there were people claiming the existence of a god; it would have been useless and incoherent.

Do atheists try to prevent you from worshipping? Do atheists proselytize? Do atheists require wordly sacrifices in exchange for heavenly rewards? All atheists care about, with the odd exception noted, is not to suffer under the religious beliefs of others. There is no movement of evangelical atheists. The very term is an oxymoron.

Main Entry: evan·gel·i·cal
Pronunciation: "E-"van-'je-li-k&l, "e-v&n-
Variant(s): also evan·gel·ic /-ik/
Function: adjective
1 : of, relating to, or being in agreement with the Christian gospel especially as it is presented in the four Gospels
2 : PROTESTANT
3 : emphasizing salvation by faith in the atoning death of Jesus Christ through personal conversion, the authority of Scripture, and the importance of preaching as contrasted with ritual
4 a capitalized : of or relating to the Evangelical Church in Germany b often capitalized : of, adhering to, or marked by fundamentalism : FUNDAMENTALIST c often capitalized : LOW CHURCH
5 : marked by militant or crusading zeal : EVANGELISTIC <the evangelical ardor of the movement’s leaders – Amos Vogel>

• Evan·gel·i·cal·ism /-li-k&-"li-z&m/ noun
• evan·gel·i·cal·ly /-li-k(&-)lE/ adverb

[tdn]

@davenportavenger

Right now they might be coloring pictures of Jesus, but that’s only to get them inured to religion in general; once they start going to church for real, then they’ll get exposed to homophobia or be recruited to make bombs for abortion clinics. And because they have been socialized into believing that religion is a good thing, they’ll be less resistant to these beliefs.

Actually, there are none so evangelical as the newly converted.