Evangelical Christians - Faith vs Deeds

This thread, in which an evangelical Christian is witnessing, made me question the OP’s statement that faith is more important than deeds in attaining virtue in the eyes of God. It might have been bad phrasing in the OP, but it looked like they were saying that good deeds are actually somehow offensive to God.

This mindset strikes me as being not at all in keeping with the ideals of Christianity, as they have been understood to the present day. Can someone tell me where this idea (faith good, deeds not necessary, or even bad) came from, or how it is thought to be in keeping with the ideals of Christianity?

(Mods, I know this is a question, but it might stir some debate or witnessing, so I put it in GD. Feel free to move it.)

First off, I’m Catholic, and not an evangelical Christian, but from my understanding, those who believe in “Faith alone” strongly focus on:
Romans 3:27-29

But, apparently, not so much on this:
[url=http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JAS+2&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on]James 2

Opps, the second link should have been James 2 of course.

I think the idea is that, if someone has true faith in Christ, the deeds must flow out from that. Deeds are not the means towards salvation, but rather the expression of it, the landmarks by which society might notice one who is saved.

Right thought causes right action, but wrong thought can also sometimes cause the right action… so the key is the thought, not the action itself.

Ok, thanks for replies so far. I can buy Master’s James 2 version, and I can buy Priam’s “good deeds will flow from your faith” version, but if you look at the link, that doesn’t seem to be what is being argued here.

The OP in the linked thread seems to have the same idea as Jack Chick in this tract. Where does this particularly screwed-up mindset come from? Why set aside Christian tradition (as I understand it) to these ends?

The idea that it’s wrong to do good is, well, odd at best - perhaps it’s the way that it is being phrased and we’re misinterpreting the writer…I’m not sure. I couldn’t make it through the OP, so I have no doubt that I misread something.

But, off the top, those of us who believe that salvation does not require good deeds tend to look at verses like (and sorry, I memorized these all in KJV, so that’s what I’m going to be retyping):
Titus 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us.
Ephesians 2:8-9 - By grace ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law, for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

However, it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t do good things… as Priam said good works should flow from your faith.

Jack Chick is utterly psycho. He’s not necessarily representative of all Evangelical Christians, though you will find some who buy into his stuff…

Really the answers you get are going to vary as to whether you’re talking to a Fundamentalist Evangelical or a more mainline one.

I am evangelical and what I know of is
faith is necessary for salvation.
Doing deeds for rewards is not the idea.
When you love God, as it were, you Naturally do good deeds.

Sortof like if you love your wife, you naturally will do good things for her.

Just as a note, Chick isn’t saying the Marshal is wrong to do good. He’s saying that the Marshal’s wrong in thinking that, by doing good, he’ll go to heaven. (You’ll note that Chick also mentions that since the preacher came to town, the people of the town have stopped drinking, gambling, hellraising, and being prostitutes). So, the town has turned from evil to good, but it’s done so because the people have been saved by Christ, through the preacher.

This is one of those fundimental debates in Christianity that doesn’t seem to go away. What it comes down to is the question, “Are people naturally good, or naturally evil?”, and one of the first times you saw this debate really explored was in fifth century Christianity. There was a British monk named Pelagius, who said that people were naturally good, and that it’s theoretically possible, at least, to lead a virtuous life, and be worthy of going to heaven. For Pelagius, Jesus came to earth to teach humanity how to be good. He was the perfect, sinless man, so by living a life like Jesus, mankind could go to heaven.

Opposing him was Augustine, the Bishop of Hippo. Augustine said that mankind is naturally evil…that Adam’s disobedience permanently corrupted the human spirit, and that it was neccesary for Jesus to sacrifice himself to remove the taint of Adam’s sin. Because he did this, Augustine said, if you accept Jesus as the savior of mankind, God will give you the gift of divine grace, which will allow you, in spite of your evil nature, to enter heaven. This is important, since, because we are inherently tainted with an evil nature, nothing we can do can ever be worthy of getting us into heaven.

Augustine’s side ended up “winning” the debate, in large part because he was saying stuff that had been widely accepted, if not explicitly spelled out, in the past.

You also saw this debate break out during the Reformation. Luther and the Protestants accused the Catholic Church of teaching the doctrine of “Justification by Works”…that good moral behavior would get you into heaven. (This was partly due to the fact that the Catholic Church at the time did focus a lot on moral teaching, and partly because of the indulgence controversy, which is really too much to go into here.) Luther and the other early Protestants argued instead for “solo fide”…faith alone; that only by a personal decision to have faith in Jesus as savior, will one gain entry into heaven, and conversely, if one rejects Jesus as savor, he assures his condemnation into hell. This isn’t to say that Luther thought moral actions were unimportant. He did believe that Christians had a duty to act morally. He just said that acting morally didn’t give you any credit in the eyes of God.

In the Roman church.

(I believe both the Irish church and the Eastern church went with Pelagius.)

As a Christian who is most emphatically not Evangelical, here’s my take on the whole “works vs. faith” controversy is best summed up by James 2:14-18

In the Gospels, Christ speaks of trees and, by extension, people being known by the fruit they have born. I’m afraid I’m going to indulge in the “No True Scotsman” fallacy, but I do believe that the more a person truly embraces his or her faith, be it Christianity or any other, the more the principles of that faith will emerge in his or her actions. It’s also occured to me, as I look for the best way to put things, that even within one religion, what people believe the principles of their faith are will vary, and their actions will vary accordingly. My personal take on Christianity focuses on love, compassion, forgiveness, and the notion that those who choose Christianity are servants of God and their fellow men. There are Christians whose take on Christianity focuses on judgement. As a result, their response to someone who we both see as a sinner will be may different than mine, and the fruits we show out of those responses will be as different from each other as a pear is from a tomato.

My faith is very strong. It is in fact, the most important thing in my life, and it actively sustains me. It has also cost me dearly within the past month. My faith compels me to act, to speak, to write as surely as it does the hardest-core Fundamentalist out there. I may be a Christian, but, Aldebaran, I can rather sympathise with Mohammed when Al Q’ran (my apologies if I’ve misspelled it) was first revealed to him with God commanding him, “Recite!” Recently, saying what my faith compelled me to cost me a friendship. While I regret the loss of the friendship, I do not regret the deeds my faith compelled me to take.

The debate between deeds and faith is as old a Christianity. Martin Luther, in his melieu where faith was a political tool and indulgences were bought and sold, wished the book of James wasn’t part of the Bible. Perhaps in his environment I would have thought the same thing. As it is, several years ago, I participated in a Bible study on the book of James and, while I was already very much a Christian, this rather obscure book of the Bible made a great deal of sense to me, and it still does.

I am more public about being a Christian here than I am anywhere else except perhaps my church, to my suprise. Saying “Jesus” every other word doesn’t matter to me; if anything, I’ve seen too many people who do that, but show no compassion or kindness to their fellow men. Nevertheless, I stand by James 2:18 which I’ll repeat once more: “Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.” I’ll also give you what I was saying long before that Bible study, “If I have to tell you I’m a Christian, I’m doing a lousy job of it!”

Respectfully,
CJ

The fact that some non-Christians are really good people and that some Christians are really bad people is something of an embarrassment among many evangelicals and in my experience, they reason their way out of the ‘what about Gandhi?’ question starting with Romans 3:20 (Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law) and a very small, out-of-context portion of Isaiah 64:6 (all our righteous acts are like filthy rags).

[sidetrack]
In a church study group the other day, someone asked me what I thought the world would be like if everyone was Christian and I had to honestly answer that I thought it could actually be a lot worse because:
a) Christians don’t seem to be immune (or even particularly resistant) to any of the standard human failings.
b) Religious people can exhibit remarkable strength of conviction, even when they are wrong - and this can cause them to overlook or avoid reality checks.