Some old movie I saw once, I think with Jack Lemmon:
1: You don’t want to live forever.
- I most certainly do want to live forever.
1: No, you don’t. You’d get bored.
- I have hobbies.
Wonder how old I am Sparticus is?
I hope I am wrong, but I detect a slight flavor of “Annoying, isn’t it how those old geezers seem to want to hang on to life after they’ve lived their allotted time” in his postings.
122 years is the current confirmed maximum, and there is a suggestion that there is a 125 year old woman in Mali (just saw the article this morning). I suspect that you are probably right that 125 years might not be out of the question. And when I was 25 I didn’t think this way at all (I’m not quite twice that now). But how would you feel about 200 or 300? And do you think you should have that choice? 500, 1000. With a 30 billion people on the planet? Suppose science does succeed in making age irrelevant to death. Then what?
Okay, you keep reinventing yourself. Mao did that every 8 to 10 years. If he hadn’t died and had been robust, there are some people who would argue that would be a good thing, but I am hardly one of them. He was an evil tyrant who would have kept murdering people forever. Kinda like Sauron. You argue that you are not like Mao. Well, the other side of the coin is that nature has given us a 100 percent guarantee that it doesn’t matter whether you are like Mao. Mao too controversial a choice. How about Bill Gates, a much more benign figure. Would we like Bill III to die eventually. He has made elaborate plans for it, from which we and/or our progeny will benefit greatly. Charities will feast off the carcass for decades. And that’s a good thing. Worms will one day feed off my carcass. And for worms, that is a good thing. I’ll be dead, and won’t care.
This ego thing we have going, this consciousness, is all very interesting and all, but it is only its built in self preservation mechanism that inclines me to want my ego to outlast the choices of original art work that adorn my walls. (Coyote animation cel signed by the late great Chuck Jones. As an aside, it increased in value with Chuck’s death.)
But I am not asking people to argue that their own deaths will be to their advantage, that would be a weird argument that most folks won’t want to even try on. Is the death of the individual good or bad? What are the consequences?
I picked up stiffs for a funeral home for about a year in college, and there was nothing more sad than hearing someone say, “At least she isn’t suffering anymore.” That’s not to say that we didn’t get our share of prematures–but I disagree with the notion that they are somehow (significantly) more tragic than Mom being released from the unbearable torture of cancer, for example. And there is no pleasure in seeing a doctor sign a death certificate, wondering if “too many birthdays” is a legally valid cause of death.
I’ll tell you what: there is no feeling like carrying a stillborn baby wrapped in a cheap synthetic blanket and tucked into your arm like a loaf of bread. Death is something else altogether.
I can’t speak to the evolutionary necessity of death, but I flatly reject the idea that life can somehow become boring just because you’ve seen one too many sunrises. I’ve beaten cancer (pause for the applause), and I’ve spent more than my share of time wishing I’d never been born. I’ve meditated on death to the tune of Ace of Base (no cd player in the car), and I’ve buried an 18-year old kid because he would rather graduate from high school with his friends than tell his doctor that his leukemia was acting up again. But I have never thought that life could ever become boring. There’s just too much to know, just too much to learn. Too many books to read, too much beer to drink, too many jokes to tell.
Throw away your bible, dear friend, and take up mathematics. God’s universe is written there, and it will take you forever to read it.
I think the main problem with immortality is that we’re not designed for it. Our lifespan is not based on getting a full life. Instead, it’s built around maximizing species propagation. We don’t live any longer than necessary to be educated, successfully reproduce, and help support our offspring. In a sense, immortality is a rejection of what being human is.
That said, count me in for another 970 years or so.
js_africanus
That was beautiful and eloquent. Thank you.
For the record, my view isn’t based on my religion, which promises some sort of life everlasting, but rather on the practicality: we are going to die, and we should live our lives with that knowledge and enjoy it fully. I think that part of what people mean when an aged loved one dies after long illness is to comfort themselves in the grief. A death is very hard to deal with at first, and the sadness lessens slowly and never goes away completely.
Sorry, I missed this in a simulpost. I’m less than 50 and older than 40. My age and my eventually impending death isn’t the point. Neither is yours really, but feel free to ignore that particular point as I think most folks are going to share that anyway. Think of it in the converse: would it be a good thing if people lived indefinitely, a few hundred, thousand or million years until some statistical accident caught up with them. It occurs to me that Larry Niven did a doodle on this with his Nessus Puppetteer character in the Ringworld books.
Frankly, they’ll get my life when they pry it from my cold, dead, fingers. Wait, no they won’t, because I’m going to have my head frozen, in hopes that they can thaw it out someday and bring me back to life.
If I don’t make it to at least 109, I’m going to be sorely pissed when I get to the afterlife, let me tell you!
Well it would certainly change our economic system if we could take out a 100 yr mortgage or live off of 200 years accumulated interest.
The way I see it, the biggest problem with living to 150 is that the years at the end of your life kind of suck anyway. It would be better if they could squeeze a few more years between 21-40.
That is a good point. Would I want to live 200, 300, or 500+ years. I would have to say- Yes. Upload me into a computer, replace my biological parts every 50 years or so, whatever. As long as I have a chance at growth. Would I want to have a 20-21st century mentality, IQ, physiology in a 23rd century world? Probably not. If the science at the time can upgrade me regularly so I am the physical equivalant of at least average at that time I will be happy. Implants in my head to assist with memory and speed up my thought processes may become necessary- so I say go ahead. 
I don’t think I will live to the age all of that will become possible though. If so, I don’t think it will be available to everybody. Perhaps those just worth preserving throughout the centuries. That is why I strive in life to make myself worthwhile. My measure stick is this: If they come up with a way to preserve people for centuries, and it is only to those worthwhile, will you be one of them. If my answer is no, then I work harder. (by worthwhile I mean like world moving authors, scientists, great thinkers, etc)
I can Imagine other ways of life, like uploaded machine intelligence. Would I want to be uploaded into a machine to live for an unimaginable amount of time? I can say yes. There is alot in this universe to explore, much on this world, many things to do, books to write, things to learn, possibilities to explore, too much for a meager 100 or so years. Is it for everybody- probably not, why would the average man, that is only interested in watching TV after work, dreams of retirement, and measures his life in 20’s, 30’s, old, be interested in living 200+ years. For him/her all that means is a much longer time to retirement. Would somebody that is driven with purpose and passion like a scientist (Einstein for example) want to live longer to finish what they feel is important? I think so, if they feel the way I do.
Depends on the person. Average Joe- No. Passion and purpose driven induviduals- Possibly.
When death comes, so be it, I will go like a man. Untill that day, I will embrace life and “suck the marrow” right out of it. For as long as possible.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by I am Sparticus *
**js_africanus
That was beautiful and eloquent. Thank you.**
[quote]
Thank you for the compliment, it means alot.
Then I may have misunderstood part of your OP, my apoligies.
Last night while waiting to fall asleep, I was wondering how life/the world would be different if we really live until probability caught up with us (car wreck, roof caving in, etc.), because on reflection that seemed to be what you were asking about. I really couldn’t imagine it.
Part of me thought of the spontaneous outbreaks of peace along the trenches in WWI. Evidently, the soldiers had to be repositioned regularly, because by looking at the same faces (watching out for snipers, of course) across the trenches they became “friends”. (The History Channel is going to have a documentary about a spontaneous Christmas truce on Tues., Dec. 17 at 8 p.m. ET.) I wondered if the world would be more mellow & peaceful because of something analogous.
Then I thought of the Elves in The Lord of the Rings; Such a mix of melancholy and joy.
Then I thought, maybe we’d be more warlike and cruel because we’d have so much to lose.
Then I thought, we really wouldn’t be human, would we?
How could we be human indefinately? Obviously, the limits of the human brain have not been reached–but there must be limits. Would we forget our childhoods, then adolescence, then young adult hood, then… Maybe the only way would to be like a sea turtle: limited intelligence, driven by instinct, living for the moment.
I’ve enjoyed the posts about the hassles of mortgages & whatnot going on forever, and I think they’re worth considering. But I also see a side to it that I just can’t comprehend.
Thank you, Czarcasm, for summing up the source of my depression for the last year. Now, have you any tips for becoming enthusiastic about the future, as you seem to be?
- js_africanus *
No apologies necessary, I knew exactly what you meant. Not all Christians are fundamentalists, but we are getting fewer.
Statistics catching up with us is one of the things I was talking about. A careful person could live 100,000 thousand years without old age and disease. OMG.
The thought of more violence, because old people would have so much more wealth than young, and have so much oppression to keep it. And yeah, loss of mortality would really change what it means to be human. But as for mortgages, they’d get paid off by us first generation of “old timers”. A mortgage really doesn’t make sense for more than 30 years unless interest rates stay ridiculously low, because principle doesn’t get paid off, you might as well rent – check an amortization schedule. (I did several years back because the Japanese were doing 40 to 100 year mortgages.)
- Epimetheus *
The computer upload is interesting. And would your family have a right to sue if there was a computer crash and you were not properly backed up?
*msmith537 *
And I’d go for the years 35 to 50. Life started being generally enjoyable for me at 35. I wouldn’t want to repeat the insecurities of my earlier years.
Oh, the sweet irony of that happening.
I prefer: “Given a long enough timeline, everybody’s life expectancy drops to zero.”
And the best quote about death ever is Woody’s: " I don’t want to acheive immortality through my work, I want to acheive immortality by not dying." - preach it, Woodman!
By the way, the timeline remark is from * Fight Club *
This is going to seem trite, but what the hell.
Join clubs and organizations that interest you.
Stop listening to the same radio stations all the time, and listen to different types of music. Do this for two or three weeks and you will find stuff you like.
Quit renting movies that you’ve seen before. Watch only movies that you have been interested in but never bothered to rent or buy.
Read that book that you always wanted to read but never got around to, but stay away from book series where you pretty much already know what’s going to happen and to who.
Go to art shows and galleries, museums, exhibitions, and the like. This way you meet people that share your interests but don’t already know all your likes and dislikes.
If traffic is light and you’re ahead of schedule, stop off at that store or shop that you’ve always been curious about, even if it’s a bit out of the way.
Like I said, trite advice. But none of these suggestions cost a lot, and they all will bring new experiences.
If there was an infinate amount of time it would become meaningless and boring. I would hate to live forever.
But why?
Not too long ago, I was involved in an online discussion about cryogenics. One individual repeatedly posted angry messages scorning the “arrogance” of someone who would want to live twice.
Nonsense! We already live twice! Our primitive ancestors lived about forty years in their primitive, natural state, then keeled over dead to make way for the next generation of homo sapiens. Nowadays, it’s not uncommon at all for people to stick around for twice that. Do old, ancient hags at the horrifying age of 41 find themselves bored and longing for death? Hell no - they find new things to do and accomplish things our short-lived predecessors could have never dreamed of.
And if eighty years isn’t too long, why not twice that? Or twice that? Or twice THAT?
Death sucks. You spend a lifetime putting yourself together, and then the Reaper comes along and obliterates you. Feh. The moment cyborg bodies become available, my gray matter’s getting stuck in one post haste.
Bull. Just because you don’t write the next “Hamlet” in your first hundred years doesn’t mean you won’t do it in your next. I can’t play the tuba, but give me an extra millennia and I just might take a shot at it.