Eventual death is a good thing

Great Debates
1

Personally, I look forward to everyone’s death, including my own and all my loved ones. Mind you, I don’t think that premature death is anything less than tragic, but certainly at the end of life, death must come, and it is either quick (and therefore not so bad), or slow, and a welcome release from the pain of a last illness.

In sum, I think death is a good thing, the greiving period aside. The attitude that death is a bad thing is hypocritical and immature. IMO. Aside from the fact that we all eat things vegetable and animal that were once alive, and are now dead, that all creatures with sexual reproduction (us importantly included) must necessarily die for the survival of the species. Religions (and I am a Christian) regard death as the transformation to a better life, and some regard it as an introduction to the justice of heaven and hell. With regard to politics, Lincoln may become “one for the ages”, but the end of a political figure like, say Generalissimo Ferdinand Francisco Franco as the end of a long tyranny. Personally, I would find life to be an intolerable tyranny and oppression if people lived forever or even indefinitely. While premature death is horrible and gut wrenching, death at the end of life is natural and to be looked forward to by grown ups. Not only does it happen to all of our loved ones, it happens to everyone else too, including our stupid bosses, people who have wronged us, criminals and tyrants. While we might not be equal if life, the universe recycles us all equally in death.

Yet when the subject comes up, people assume and apparently hope that science will eventually overcome death itself, live their lives as though they will continue to do so forever. For those people, I have news which is rather depressing: you will die. You will certainly die. It is in fact more certain than the sun rising every morning. (The sun will supernova in a few billion years, you will be long dead.)

While critters with asexual division may live indefinitely, we are among the million of species that require sex to propagate, and all sexual creatures die to make way for future generations. Even the venerable Bristlecones eventually die (after five thousand or so years).

We may be afraid for the existence of our egos, we may fear God’s judgment, we may look forward to it. We may worry that only oblivion awaits. We may fear the pain of the final illness or the uncertainty. But we are going to go. Sieze the day.

What do you think? Agree or disagree? Explain.

2

I must agree with you that everything that lives must die eventually. But, while you say on the one hand that life will end, on the other you look forward to an everlasting existence, some kind of life hereafter. Why is the one endless life better than extending life indefinitely on this plane?

Don’t you see the contradiction? You say all life not only must, but should end, and then you posit an endless life hereafter for good and evil people alike, the only difference being an interminable bliss (I would call it ennui) for the good guys and a never-ending punishment (which I see as ultimate cruelty) for the bad guys.

Eventual death probably is a good thing, as you say. It seems certain, given present evidence. Just trading limited life for everlasting boredom or pain somewhere else seems a colossal waste of time. But then, I’m probably one of those destined for the pain part (from the Christian point of view). Oblivion seems preferable.

3

Well, I’m a very liberal Christian. I am more inclined to think that the life everlasting is the peace of Christ I have now. If the good Lord can provide an eternal existence that would be tolerable, I suppose so. But I don’t go around thinking I’m going to be an eternal harpist. As a part time sinner, neither am I worried at all about hell, I simply don’t think that it exists.

4

Hmmm…death is a good thing? Gotta ask http://www.alexchiu.com about that. He claims to be immortal and is trying to make everyone in the world immortal as well with free immortality ring.

5

I am Sparticus, you forgot to mention this reason you started this thread in the first place: your posting and my response in this IMHO thread .

Always glad to give a helping hand.

6

It might be a good thing for the species, for life in the big picture, but it’s certainly no blast for the individual having to deal with it.

At least, so I assume, since I’m not dying and I don’t plan to for a long time. (But the fact that I shall at some point plagues me daily, and I do not exaggerate.)

7

Yeah, immortality would truly suck. Whilst I find it hard to imagine a time when I will not exist, it is even more painful to entertain the notion that this life will go on forever. Was it Wowbagger in Hitchhikers Guide who was condemned to eternal life, so spent his time cruising the universe so that he could be objectionable to every single person in it?? Sounds pretty boring to me.

But I disagree that there is such a thing as a premature death. Why is it more OK to die at 80 than at 18? Is it ‘better’ to die at 25 years than at 5 years because you have had 20 more years? When you’re dead, it doesn’t matter how many years you have notched up in life. It matters to those who knew and loved you, and some deaths seem certainly more tragic than others, but death is death whether it comes early in your ‘life’ or later. To say that death is a good thing but then to add provisos seems to contradict your stance. If death is good, it is good whenever it happens. If death is a bad thing, then it is to be avoided at any age. Which is it to be?

I do not believe in reincarnation. If I am to be reborn, then my memories that make up my self would have to accompany me into the next life…and that is essentially immortality, and that would bore me to death. Ditto for eternal life in heaven, hell, or wherever my ‘soul’ ends up. Without my memories, I will cease to exist. And for the sake of argument, lets assume that memories cannot exist without a brain to store them…so when my brain dies, so does my self.

I’m checking in at the Oblivion counter myself…don’t need to take any baggage on that journey. :smiley:

8

Eventual death is a good thing, of course. Cycle of life and all that.

Except mine. That one sucks.

9

Czarcasm, I think that clouds the issue of whether death is a good thing, and I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t hijack my thread and try to turn it into something personal. Not everything is about you. You asked me to leave your forum on the subject and I have. I, for one, would appreciate if you could move on. If you have something worthwhile to add to this thread, like your opinion on the subject and the reasons why, please feel free to jump in. Our current debating topic is a legitimate topic only triggered by a particular expression that is irrelevant to the now broader debate in a forum you suggested.

In the meantime, I caught a late showing of Solaris and highly recommend it for people interested in the subject of death, mortality and consciousness.

10

—Yeah, immortality would truly suck. Whilst I find it hard to imagine a time when I will not exist, it is even more painful to entertain the notion that this life will go on forever.—

Dunno if I can agree with that. I mean, from my perspective, my life might as well be infinate in both directions anyway, because both birth and (natural) death are so far off and distant that I can’t really meaningfully concieve of them. If I can tolerate the eternity between each second right now, I don’t see why that would necessarily ever change. I have a certain degree of weariness of life all the time: but it comes and goes with various situations: it isn’t just increasing linearaly over time. Certainly, as I age, that weariness will in general increase, and when life gets physically difficult and mentally vacant, I suppose my weariness with life will increase and death will be fine with me (not that I’m particularly scared of death right now), but if my body and mind stayed sharp, it again isn’t clear that weariness of life would then really be the eventual outcome.

Many have longed for immortality who didn’t know what to do with themselves on a Sunday afternoon -somebody famous

11

Kambuckta, pravnik, I think that you have hit on the point of, gee, I’m having such a good time, I’d rather not go right now. And we’d all pretty much rather not go right now, and that will be extended one day at a time through our whole lives. I don’t have many days I would want to be dead. But, as an example, I was thinking after the movie today, I’m in a very good place, I’ve done the things I wanted to do, if I dropped dead on the way home, that would be a good time to cash in my chips.

We have a very strong urge to survive, and someone who seeks death we correctly diagnose as very ill and seek to treat. I think this is separate from the serious and goofy questions raised by Dr. Kevorkian, which I assume (ass you me) this board has debated before, but to get back to the question: is death a good thing?

I have often seriously wondered how the economy would be different if people lived indefinitely, as well as culture in general. That is, people could be rendered dead by trauma (accident or murder), but did not die of old age or disease. Would the older work a social order of enslaving the younger? Would liability laws have even more severe effects?

The point I was making about premature death is that the death of a child is unexpected in many instances and far more traumatic than the death of someone very elderly who has lived a long life. While such a premature death may serve a spiritual purpose of a mysterious God, it thwarts society’s goals quite thoroughly, and causes me to have a great deal more grief than the death of an old person.

But the attitude of “death sucks” seems to me at first to be a careless artifact of an immediate survival instinct, and then on further reflection seems to be indoctrinated from a mix of media and high finance driven science of modern medicine.

12

I have spent my entire life meeting new people, finding out new things, having new experiences and generally readjusting my life to fit into a new world each and every day. I look forward to the surprise that each new day brings, and until the surprises run out I want to keep on going. Likewise, unless someone personally tells me that they no longer wish to live, I will continue to wish them a long and healthy life. It may be true that death helps to further society in some way, but when it comes to my personal life, I plan on being a selfish s.o.b. because in my personal universe I am the center, and when I die it dies too.
I guess part of this stems from the fact that I have not seen any evidence that there is any sort of afterlife. Thus, when I think of someone dying, I envision a lifetime’s worth of love, hope, joy and wonderment coming to an end.

13

On further relection, I think that when people say that they are tired of living they may be spending too much time dwelling on the past and regretting that they cannot have it back. It’s not so much that they are giving up on life. It’s more that they are afraid to replace old memories with new ones, because the old memories are somehow “sacred” and thus of more value.

14

Well, different strokes for different folks. The thought that in about 100 years that the world (nature and human society) will suffer from none of its current foolish humans, have entirely new ones to worry about is a very refreshing thought. That it will also have none of its current bright lights (including yours truly) doesn’t really depress me, even assuming that there is no afterlife. It’s not a matter of preference. We all die. No sense spending a lifetime worrying and moaning about it, that will only detract from the time we have here. I’ve taken care of some very old sick and dying relatives in my time. I loved them very much, and when they were still aware of things, they loved life. Some were afraid of death, others weren’t. But to wish this continued existence on anyone would seem to me to be heartwrenching. In view of the fact that we must die, I’m going (with the current great distance I have on it) to look it right in the face and say: I’m alive now! It’s precious to me and I enjoy it, “but have at you death: I’m ready when you are.” The illusion of separateness that my consciousness gives me will be gone (assuming no afterlife for which there is no scientific evidence, if there is an afterlife, boy would God find me a pain in the ass with my questions and problems with authority figures) and my constituent parts will not cease to exist, but rather my atoms will again mingle with the cosmos, they will be recycled and share parts of future beings with all of you. Statistically, we all have so many atoms that within a few million years, we really will all physically share in each other. Eventually the Earth and solar system will die, and there will be a Big Crunch (all the SdMBers together in one big hug), or a dwindling heat death in which we all become an ever expanding and continuingly uniform background radiation where we really are all the same. One of these is likely to happen 100 billion or a trillion trillion years from now.

As John Maynard Keynes once joked: “In the long run, we are all dead.”

15

Let me see…

I have another 19 yrs. to finish my mortgage.

I am sick and tired of it already.

This house is has a 50 year-warranty.

That means about two loans every century.

Yes, inmortality sucks. But if I find a way around the mortage thing I won’t mind being inmortal, after all I don’t wanna die :slight_smile:

16

I do not wish long life to anyone that doesn’t want it, but I will continue to assume that an individual wants to continue living until that individual tells me otherwise. As far as my atoms not “dying” but continuing to live on through recycling after my death, I am already recycling my atoms every day, and have no need for death for this process to continue.
Foolish humans, indeed. What evidence do you have that the humans of a thousand years ago were any more foolish than we are now, or that humans in a hundred years will be any less foolish than we are now. Before you ask me to make room for my “betters”, I want to see some evidence that they will indeed be better, and in what way.

17

They won’t be better at all. No better and no worse. We are as other men and women are and were. But they will be different. They will have more interesting toys, however. I will miss the new toys.

18

True, but for the most part the reason people get bored is not that they have been alive too long. People are subject to deteriorating bodies, the need to work for a living (which if you don’t like your job can be enough to make you tired of life by itself), and to mortality itself. For instance, a lot more people would start studying music if they thought they had enough time to get really good. In other words, it is a lack of quality time that causes people to be bored with life, not an excess.

19

Hmm, don’t know about you, but I am only 25, I easily have another 100 years ahead of me. Don’t relegate me to death so soon there pal. :wink:

20

So we should move aside and die just because the next group of people will be “different”, I am Sparticus? Howzabout I decide to embrace new ideas and meet new people, and just become different? Will that fit the bill?

I think Nighttime has a good point. We are not so much tired of living-we are tired of living the way we currently live.