[QUOTE=askeptic]
Ya know, Johny ol’ bean, perhaps you could link us to an example of what you are concerned about before we get to far into this debate. Or is your concern just a general feeling of anxiety that you wanted to express?
[/QUOTE]
no need to be condescending. just do a google search on “atheist, holiday tree” for an example. you can start there…
[QUOTE=JohnnyEnigma]
no need to be condescending. just do a google search on “atheist, holiday tree” for an example. you can start there…
[/QUOTE]
It’s usually considered appropriate for the person who starts the thread to do that sort of work.
[QUOTE=JohnnyEnigma]
what I want to say, is anyone who is intolerant of the religious or objects to religious practices held public because it “offends them” is intolerant.
[/QUOTE]
Way to chase your own tail there, Rover. I think you’ve defined yourself right out of an argument. Next up: do true Scotsmen purt sugar on their porridge?
Stranger
What QTM said.
Also, I think this debate could be more effective if you would go on record here and now, and state whether you are an atheist or not. It does not matter what your answer is, but I get the feeling you are not, and are just using it as a rhetorical device.
FTR I am an atheist and think that any atheist who wants to make a big deal about a holiday tree is goofy. Icons of dogma have no place in our public spaces. I am fine with a Christmas tree because lets face it Christmas has little if anything to do with Christianity.
Like I said both my wife and I are atheists yet we have an annual Christmas party decorate the house with all kinds of standard Christmas crap, have a big tree with a star on top. We get teary and enjoy our own feeling of wishing good cheer to all of humanity.
I would have no objection to typical christmas displays Santas Trees reindeer elves and such in my community, but the minute they try to put up a manger or nativity scene or menorah or “Atheist Holiday Tree” I will break out my protest sneakers and do my best to get rid of it.
[QUOTE=JohnnyEnigma]
Yes, it’s a widespread problem because too many people object over trivial irrelevant things that fall under the guise of “intolerance”. As they happen, I’ll point them out. But just this morning on the cable talk shows, the atheist holiday tree was discussed. And although I completely support it, some people did not. Why? Why not let them have a holiday tree? It’s pure intolerance not to… Are people threatened by beliefs that do not match their own? I think so…
[/QUOTE]
I think we should all take a moment to contemplate that perhaps it’s not so much a “widespread problem” involving “too many people”, as that “morning cable talk shows” have to fill those three hours with something.
[QUOTE=askeptic]
.. the minute they try to put up a[n] … “Atheist Holiday Tree” I will break out my protest sneakers and do my best to get rid of it.
[/QUOTE]
Um, on what grounds? Most would oppose the menorah and creche by the municipality on public property on the grounds that it is effectively a state sponsorship of a specific religion.
Atheism isn’t a religion.
I’m not sure what argument one could use in court.
I’m curious as to what holiday the atheist would be celebrating with their tree? Festivus?
[QUOTE=JohnnyEnigma]
like I said earlier regarding the “church and state” issue, point taken.
Although I don’t completely agree with the concept of “separation of church and state”. I think it’s beyond anal. But that’s another debate… yeah.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, what an anal bigot that Jefferson guy was.
[QUOTE=j666]
Um, on what grounds? Most would oppose the menorah and creche by the municipality on public property on the grounds that it is effectively a state sponsorship of a specific religion.
Atheism isn’t a religion.
I’m not sure what argument one could use in court.
I found this reference
[/QUOTE]
The government isn’t supposed to favor any one religion or favor religion (in general) over non-religion (atheism, if you will). Presumably the opposite is equally valid-- it can’t favor non-religion over religion.
BTW, we did the whole “War on Christmas” thing awhile back. Anyone interested in digging through that trainwreck (IMO) of a thread just needs to do a little search for threads with “Christmas” in the title. I think even the OP finally agreed that there is not a “war on Christmas”.
[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
Yeah, what an anal bigot that Jefferson guy was.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, and I’m aware that the Big J was slave owner. I’m talking about in context of religious beliefs.
[QUOTE=twickster]
In public, not a problem – supported by govt. money, it’s against the First Amendment, and, yeah, I have a problem with it.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, it’s not. The SCOTUS has ruled that mixed dispalys are OK as long they stick to “secularized” symbols and don’t push one religion over others. What gets to be called a “secularized” symbol and what doesn’t is one of those angel dancing on the head of ping things. Presumably, any message on the display like “Christ is Lord” would make it lose secular status.
Lynch v. Donnelly
County of Allegheny v. ACLU
Frankly, I find the logic to be rather twisted, but that’s the way it is. Symbols aren’t bad, in and of themselves, but you need to consider the motivation for using them. If you’re trying to push religion, then that’s bad. If you just want to recognize the holiday, that’s OK.
The key method the Court has used to determine whether an action violates the establishment clause was outlined in Lemon vs Kurztman. The Lemon Test (don’t laugh) is:
And of course, we can all easily agree what is excessive and what isn’t, right? 
[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
Yeah, what an anal bigot that Jefferson guy was.
[/QUOTE]
I think that jefferson guy was trying to avoid another Church of England scenario. i don’t think that jefferson guy would object if people prayed at graduations or football games, or wherever… etc…
[QUOTE=j666]
Um, on what grounds? Most would oppose the menorah and creche by the municipality on public property on the grounds that it is effectively a state sponsorship of a specific religion.
Atheism isn’t a religion.
I’m not sure what argument one could use in court.
I found this reference
[/QUOTE]
I don’t know whether it would go against the letter of the law or not, but it would seem to go against the spirit.
[QUOTE=JohnnyEnigma]
I think that jefferson guy was trying to avoid another Church of England scenario. i don’t think that jefferson guy would object if people prayed at graduations or football games, or wherever… etc…
[/QUOTE]
Oh I think he would. My cite is the same as yours…
[QUOTE=JohnnyEnigma]
I think that jefferson guy was trying to avoid another Church of England scenario. i don’t think that jefferson guy would object if people prayed at graduations or football games, or wherever… etc…
[/QUOTE]
Again, those are private events. Not on public (government) property. It’s completely different from a tree on the courthouse lawn.
[QUOTE=Love Rhombus]
I’m curious as to what holiday the atheist would be celebrating with their tree? Festivus?
[/QUOTE]
knowledge.
They celebrate knowledge. It would be a tree of knowledge… with thoughtful books decorated on it, etc…
So it’s like atheists find comfort in their own intelligence and knowledge of the world…
Judas was a scholar; but he had no wisdom. Just saying…
[QUOTE=JohnnyEnigma]
knowledge.
They celebrate knowledge. It would be a tree of knowledge… with thoughtful books decorated on it, etc…
[/QUOTE]
And you, personally, have seen these displays?
[QUOTE=askeptic]
Oh I think he would. My cite is the same as yours…
[/QUOTE]
than why was school prayer allowed for so long if Jefferson would have objected? What am I missing here?
Wasn’t it Madeline O’hare who was deeply offended by school prayer and insisted that it be banned??? Not Jefferson…
[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
And you, personally, have seen these displays?
[/QUOTE]
uh, that’s irrelevant… the woman promoting this (an atheist) was discussing it this morning. Why would she lie about the theme of the tree? I don’t think she would deceive the viewers… she has no reason to. Am I not to believe her simply because I did not see her holiday tree?
[QUOTE=JohnnyEnigma]
uh, that’s irrelevant… the woman promoting this (an atheist) was discussing it this morning. Why would she lie about the theme of the tree? I don’t think she would deceive the viewers… she has no reason to. Am I not to believe her simply because I did not see her holiday tree?
[/QUOTE]
sigh
My point is, how common are these sort of trees?