Everything's cool, Saddam's been arrested.

[rjung]

*Originally posted by milroyj *
If that is indeed the case, where is your praise for, or at least acknowledgement of, Bush doing the right thing in regards to Libya?

milroyj, perhaps it is in the same place as your condemnation of, or at least admission to, Bush screwing in regards to Iraq?

[elucidator]

Well, I’m in a very expansive mood right now, what with the Vikings stomping the pee out of KC.

But really, whats the big deal? Qadaffi is the one taking all the risks! Short of a $20 million campaign contribution, Qadaffi has done his very very best for GeeDub’s re-election campaign. But he made all the moves, all the concessions. All GeeDubya had to do was say “OK”. What, you think there was any chance he wouldn’t? If he had even hinted such a thing, the shrieks of agony from Karl Rove’s office would echoed down the Potomac for miles!

[elucidator]

*Originally posted by Brutus *
**Don’t get worked up over it, milroyj. They are just getting cranky over the realization that they are going to have 5 more years of GW… **

Could be. Could be. Lord knows I gazed in slack horror when Nixon was elected twice. But November is a long way away, and GeeDubya will have numerous opportunities to screw the pooch. We’ll see.

[Creative_Munster]

Mr. Svinlesha, you are nothing more than an apologist for muslim terrorists. I don’t have the time or inclination to respond in full with your statements right now, but I spit bile when reading your crap.

[elucidator]

What utter rot!

[wring]

Try Maalox.

[milroyj]

*Originally posted by Brutus *
**Don’t get worked up over it, milroyj. They are just getting cranky over the realization that they are going to have 5 more years of GW… **

Oh, I’m not. But it will be amusing when their heads literally implode after the election!

[Scylla]

Svin:

Obviously not. But WE made a good point, and you’ve simply chosen to mischaracterize it and shunt it aside.

I used his exact words.

The US is feared and hated by many. Some of that fear and hate is irrational, an expression of religious fundamentalism or even psychological pathology, but not all of it. The US actively contributes to the animus it suffers abroad by pursuing wrong-headed and ham-fisted policies, many of which are an expression of precisely the attitude you promote in your posts.

Allright. First off, people are gonna hate the US simply because we’re so powerful and affluent. Secondly, I disagree with the tone of where your going if I correctly sense a chickens coming home to roost sort of direction. People make their own choices. Nothing justifies a terrorist or transfers the blame to us. Thirdly, I don’t know where you come off attributing this attitude to “wrong-headed” or “Ham-fisted” policies and claim they are like the ones I’m promoting.

Personally, I think the mealy, wishy washy actions like in Kosovo and Mogadishu that get us in trouble long-term, not the direct actions like Iraq I and II or Afghanistan.

To cut to the chase, WE’s point is that in all of the reactions to 9/11, a few moments of deep soul-searching regarding our own role in world affairs is sadly lacking. Your reasoning exemplifies that deficit. Since, as you would have it, we are so obviously “generous, well-meaning, and right,” there’s simply no reason for us to take a step back and reflect over how we may be contributing to the situation we’re actually trying to solve. Do you think the history of unfettered US support for Israel, despite its actual flaunting of UNSC resolutions, might be responsible for some of that animus?

I think it’s exactly the opposite. The Palestinians are a continuing problem and rallying point because they have been allowed to continue to exist and they are granted this right of existance and entitlement. In case you forget your history, they voluntarily left the country eschewing full citizenship in Israel because they figured that their fellow Arabs would drive them into the sea. Having done so, I think Israel owes them nothing, and their history quite justifies their paranoia.

They are their arab allies’ problem, not Israel’s. Israel is our staunch ally.

The problems in the Middle East occur IMO because of a deadlock of power. Israel is not permitted to destroy the enemies who attack her, so they survive to regroup and try again. It’s a big mistake to let Israel’s enemies survive.

Part of the big dawg recipe, and the example that was made of Saddam is that attacking a neighbor means regime change. If you want to stay in power, you can’t do it. We should have done it long ago.

If these countries attack or give aid to terrorists who attack us our allies, we remove them so that they cease to exist. Change the balance of power. Change the world.

I have some trouble deciphering this. By “that Bush thing,” you probably mean the infamous assassination attempt. It was debunked; never happened (probably). With regard to “attacking Israel,” Hussein’s acts were despicable, but on the other hand, he was at war with most of the rest of the civilized world. And to classify Kuwait as one of our “allies” is far-fetched at best.

The Bush thing is indeed the asassination attempt. If it was debunked somebody should have told the President and the press corps because it was brought up in a press conference on Monday to the President in a question asking if the capture caused personal satisfaction in light of that attempt.

So, if it is debunked. It’s news to me.

Oh, and Kuwait sure is an ally now.

In the year before GW II, the entire Iraqi GNP was approximately 1/5 the size of the US military budget, and growing at a whopping –6% a year. No, Scylla, it is really nutty to characterize that regime, after a decade of sanctions and bombing raids, as a credible threat to the US in any real sense. Such a claim stretches the imagination to the breaking point

I’m not really concerned about Iraq as an economic threat, Svin.

But please do list one “atrocious attack of terror” perpetrated by Saddam Hussein against the US. Just one. Inquiring minds like to know.

I think it’s “enquiring.” I haven’t made the argument that Saddam has directly attacked the US (at least I don’t think I did.) I don’t see why I should prove that they did.

To begin with, the idea that there exists an “environment” in the world in which people believe they can “get away with” using in “WMDs” against the US is simply ludicrous. You have to be kidding me. The entire US defensive posture is predicated on the principle of swift, overwhelming, and unyielding retaliation against such an act, and has been for decades. Have you never heard of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction)? We are currently the preeminent military force on the globe; nobody, bar nobody, seriously believes they can attack the US and get away with it unscathed. Look what happened to Iraq when it overstepped the constraints set by the World Emperor – a decade of sanctions, bombing raids, and intrusive inspections, followed by trumped up charges of “WMDs” and an invasion. And they had never lifted so much as a finger against us, directly. Is that your idea of an environment permissive to attacking the US?

Well yes! It wasn’t the first time the WTC got attacked by OBL, and we didn’t do shit. We didn’t do shit after the Cole either. We didn’t invade Libya. This whole swift retaliation is kind of new, you know?

This whole paradigm of get attaked then retaliate sucks. It hasn’t made Israel a safe place. This limited, low level conflict thing doesn’t help either.

This is a stupid way to wage a war. We have been attacked. We need to destroy our enemies so that they are no longer a threat.

My Grandfather was a NYC police chief, and a bit of a monster badass. He taught me how to fight really well and do serious damage long before I was responsible enough to have this knowledge. There was this guy named Irv, who I hated and who hated me. The roots of our conflict lay in the fact that brother had a hare lip and looked disfigured before it was corrected. (Now he just has a cool looking scar.) Irv was a teaser, and he gave my brother a very hard time. When he did it in front of me, I beat the shit out of him. He and I were 8, my brother was 4.

So Irv gathered his resources and he and a few of his friends started teasing me in front of other people and always in groups. Being the object of teasing by a relatively popular kid (as Irv was,) was a recipe to get more teasing. The group against me grew. It was pretty stupid to be on my side, since I was pretty much by myself.

It finally came to a head outside, during recess. Irv’s inner circle surrounded me and taunted me. Besides the inner circle of seven or eight kids and Irv, most of the rest of the rest of the class was there and they knew which way the wind was blowing, so they clearly weren’t on my side. They were against me the way a crowd was against people, looking to see them cry or get beaten up.

Now the funny thin is, I actually believed the things my Granfather taught me. You just had to, if you knew him. He told me you can’t fight a crowd. You can’t fight more than one person. You will lose. In such a situation you should go after the leader and not let go no matter what else happened until he was out of commission. Then, pick the next biggest one, until he’s done.

“You’re not gonna win,” my Grandather told me. “But it’s the only thing you can do to make them think twice next time. Otherwise they will just attack you from behind and keep switching your attention around until they wear you down. Focus on one person at a time and make them pay for what is happening so they will remember.”

He also taught me the rule of escalation. Most fights start slowly and build. There’s a warming up period. Grandpa’s advice is to ignore this. You don’t yell, push or shove as a buildup. Your first attack should be an all out one, and you should start it as soon as you know there is going to be a fight.

So when the pushing and shoving started against me, I ignored my attackers and focussed on the ringleader, Irv. He was the provoker, and though he hadn’t thrown a punch, I went straight after him and beat him bloody broke his finger deliberately and bloodied my knuckles on his face as quickly as I could. I was trying to kill him (which is what I mean when I say I wasn’t ready for the knowledge Grandpa had imparted me.) As it was happening, I got my ass-kicked, and then I got pulled off of Irv and got my ass-kicked even worse. I lost teeth. I tried to focus on one person, but all my strength was gone. I was exhausted and hurt. I got held while another person punched me. Grandpa was right, I wasn’t gonna win.

But a funny thing came out of this. Irv was crying, I wasn’t. The story got told like I won the fight against ten people (and I surely didn’t.) I got a reputation for being pretty tough, and people didn’t fuck with me.

You went off topic too, so I guess I’m allowed. The point of this though is that Saddam is Irv. He was the guy front and center in this conflict. If we let him survive we’re anybody’s bitch. He is an example.

As an aside, I suppose it’s appropriate to mention that there’s an afterward to my story. I became the school bully, all the while beleiving I was on the side of right. I suppose that moral is what you are so afraid of with the current Mideast situation.

There’s a line between being a bully who will attack wantonly at the slightest provocation and standing up for yourself. It doesn’t have to be crossed.

In fact, the only people who have thus far attacked America are a group of religious nutballs fully prepared to martyr themselves in the act. Nobody with even a small desire to remain alive on this planet would dream of trying to launch any sort of “WMD” assault against the US.

Up until 9/11 you could harbor them within your borders and give them aid and still retain your sovereignty. You can’t anymore.

In fact, this is a point you and I agree on, sort of. International relations should be conducted from a position of strength. However, you seem to think that the US lacks that, or lacked it prior to Bush; I’m here to tell you that you are way wrong. In fact, precisely the opposite is true. The US has operated for years from an illusion of invulnerability, especially since the end of the Cold War. A gigantic ocean off each coast has led Americans, and particularly their leaders, to believe that they could pursue virtually any policy they chose abroad with impunity. Which they have, each one more brutal than the last. This was the illusion, and this is what led to US hubris (of which, I’m sorry to report, you are a shining example), and this is what led to many of the terrible policies pursued by the US in the world beyond – after all, what can they do? Nobody can touch us, and if they try, we’ll fuckin’ nuke ‘em.

I really don’t know what to say about that opinion. I don’t beleive we are a brutal purveyor of hubristic policies wrought with impunity. To be sure, we have made mistakes.

To be honest though, your attitude makes me more than a little sick. It seems to me that if that’s what you think of America you should go abroad and fight against it. If we are this brutal imperial monster, why are you hanging out here and reaping the benefits. The fact that you are doing so makes you complicit in it, you know that? Do you really beleive that garbage?

It is garbage. You’re complaining about what you think is the US’s attitude, what people think of us.

It is useless and stupid to worry about what people think. Deliver the message. They will think as they will.

We spend too much time worrying about this. It’s a way in which we are manipulated by the posturing of others. It’s the posturing and manipulation that are bullshit.

Of course France and Germany are all upset and posturing that they won’t get our reconstruction money. Too bad. They can talk shit. We don’t have to. We have sent a clear and appropriate message.

My beleif is that by far, we are the greatest force for good on this planet.
Let’s see. What’s next. Your digression about US foreign policy. I don’t think you’re really looking for a response to that, but I’ll give you one anyway. I don’t buy it. I don’t buy into this “we created them,” “we are responsible” thing. I think it’s pure bullshit.

That’s not it. A lot of people speak their minds here. I’d like to think that I’m one as well. Nor do I think that many of the people who treat you so poorly really qualify as assholes. I honestly don’t see what it is, though. Even though I strongly disagree with much of what you post, I’ve always perceived you as one of the few really honest, thoughtful, thought-provoking conservatives on the boards. Yet many do not. I think you must punch some button on certain people that I just don’t have.

Nyahh, it’s this same very small group of bitter dirtbags thread after thread. Every now and then they get up enough steam and momentum and cause a trainwreck. For a while I know for a fact that they were planning it and doing it deliberately, because the ringleader made the mistake of emailing my brother (who is somewhat liberal and was disagreeing with me heatedly) and attempted to enlist him. I told him to play along for a while, so I knew what the score was. Now I think they just do it out of grudge-bearing or force of habit. It all goes back to one person, and one conflict, though.

You simply were not a part of that conflict, and you’re not a herd follower like some of the add-ons to that group. The periphery changes. The core remains the same.

Still, now, in hindsight, I’m not sure I did the right thing. I found myself caught between disagreeing with most of what you were posting and not understanding why you were getting so much shit for it. I probably should have spoken up in your defense. The same with the way things are going for you and DCU in the neighboring thread about Haliburton. But things have gotten so infected between you and certain posters that I’m simply not sure what my contribution would accomplish.

Doing the right thing is supposed to be it’s own reward. The truth is that what you decide to do or not, is your business not mine.

The US needs to stop being so high-handed, and pause to consider the possible repercussions of the policies it pursues. That, just for starters. It needs to work more closely with it allies, not alienate them. We need to help the downtrodden. Here’s a specific policy suggestion: we should withdraw financial and military support for Israel until such time as they are ready to abide by UNSC resolutions, and withdraw their settlements from the Occupied Territories. We should do this not only because it would be symbolically important to the “Muslim World,” but because it’s the morally correct thing to do.

I have trouble with characterizations like “we need to worrry about repercussions.” We don’t? or “work with our allies.” Even if they don’t work with us? It’s a two way street. And in point of fact, I think that abandoning Israel is the worst thing we could do. It certainly doesn’t fit very well into your stated strategy of 'working with our allies" and not alienating them.

We are in a war against militant muslim extremists. Israel is a strong ally in that war. Fighting these guys is the right thing to do.

Sorry, Scylla, but no. Invading Iraq is a cheap ploy to convince the domestic US population that the Bush administration is doing something about terrorism; we now know for a fact that Hussein possessed no “WMDs” and had no credible contacts with Al Queda. It’s really part of a broader strategy of global domination that forms the basic tenets of neo-conservatism.

Again, I really have a problem with the way you’re characterizing things. The fact is that these kinds of characterizations really don’t mean shit. If you really do think it is a ploy for global domination then why don’t you go fight on the side of the good guys.

If I thought my country was evil and selfist and trying to conquer the world, I would leave and fight it. Some did in Germany in WWII. If that’s what you beleive, than why are you letting yourself be a part of it? Seriously?

[Scylla]

*Originally posted by Creative_Munster *
**Mr. Svinlesha, you are nothing more than an apologist for muslim terrorists. I don’t have the time or inclination to respond in full with your statements right now, but I spit bile when reading your crap. **

It does look that way, doesn’t it?

Bear in mind that Svin is taking an adversarial position to my position and thus his posts are somewhat charged, polarized, and one-sided. As are mine.

It’s the nature of debate, and unfair to attack the guy personally. Characterizing his arguments and calling them names doesn’t do shit.

(but thanks a bunch for giving me a safe and easy opportunity to drive home a point._

[elucidator]

…Nyahh, it’s this same very small group of bitter dirtbags thread after thread. Every now and then they get up enough steam and momentum and cause a trainwreck. For a while I know for a fact that they were planning it and doing it deliberately, because the ringleader made the mistake of emailing my brother (who is somewhat liberal and was disagreeing with me heatedly) and attempted to enlist him. I told him to play along for a while, so I knew what the score was. Now I think they just do it out of grudge-bearing or force of habit. It all goes back to one person, and one conflict, though…

We’re getting into a very weird area here. Do you, honest to God, believe you’re being conspired against? This “ringleader” of whom you speak…Dr. Evil?

[church lady]…or could it be…Satan![/cl]

C’mon. Name names, tough guy. Let’s see your hand. Double dog dare you.

[Desmostylus]

Ah yes, who could forget Scylla’s grandpa.

*Originally posted by Scylla *
As I got older I’d go out with Grandpa by myself on the boat, or he and Grandma would babysit us at our house. He taught me how to fight, and how to fight dirty, how to fight to win. Dad, a Recon Marine, taught me the same kinds of things, and I was a big kid for my size, and I learned how to fight pretty good. They taught me to always be a good guy and not start fights and to stick up for people, and occasionally when we wer by myself Grandpa would tell me some extra things about what to do if I got into trouble with niggers. Grandpa seemed to think my skills were necessary primarily because of niggers, and he’d tell me what to do in the context of all the people I was fighting being niggers. “If a nigger comes at you like this, what do you do?” he’d say, and I’d show him.

Mom and Dad were pretty good though, and I was taught that Grandpa was screwy in the head about niggers because he’d been a cop. So I never beleived any of this stuff about niggers and figure grandpa was just crazy on the subject the way he was crazy about all kinds of things. Grandpa had his own way of doing things, and while I didn’t know the term then, he was clearly eccentric.

Of course I got into all kinds of fights, and in hindsight I was the good guy in most if not all of them.

And then I got a little bit older and I learned that maybe Grandpa wasn’t so crazy after all. Public school was getting bad and maybe I understood a little bit about the scary monsters that niggers really could be. There were big scary black kids, and they were monstrous and evil, and mean, and they were all black and you couldn’t fight them or do anything. They weren’t like me or my friends or Amanda or our old neighbors, at all. Maybe there really were niggers after all.

[elucidator]

Demostylus? Is he The Ringleader? No, wait a minute…its Diogenes isn’t it?! No, wait, he’s from Minnesota, too nice. Minty’s from Texas, and he’s a lawyer to boot! Yeah! I guess Minty

What do I win?

[Scylla]

Demostylus:

I’d suggest you take a step back and ask yourself if you are really arguing for anything.

It seems to me that just trying to attack somebody else, and to no other purpose is just an act of wretchedness. It makes you vile.

Seriously, what is your goal with that post?

The fact is that I’m proud of that post. I was writing about growing up with a man I both admired and despised, a man who had qualities that I percieve as both great and heroic. At the same time he was also a bigot.

I think I did a good job of conveying those qualities and feelings and except for the moral which doesn’t work the way I want it to, I think it’s a fine piece of writing.

Just picking out one chunk that contains the worst aspects I was communicating and pretending that represents the whole, is just vile. It’s like going through Huck Finn and counting the times he says “nigger Jim.” To what point?

It’s just a shitty thing to do.

[elucidator]

But The Ringleader, Scylla?! Who is the Ringleader of this twisted cabal of Perfidious Liars[sup]TM[/sup] that are persecuting you so pitilessly!

Morbidly curious minds want to know!

[London_Calling]

What is this The Waltons, already? I want to hear more of this anti-Scylla e-mail clique . . . personally I’ve suspected much the same myself, and for some time . . .

And you have a brother who posts here, with a liberal pov ?

[Desmostylus]

Well, what was the point of trotting out the playground fight/grandpa story in this thread, Scylla? That Saddam was a monstrous evil nigger?

[Scylla]

I have no fucking idea who the Ringleader is. Personally, I always pictured it as a loose disorganizec confederacy, but I’m just speculating.

Why don’t you just post your table of organization, since you’d know better than I?

[Scylla]

*Originally posted by Desmostylus *
**Well, what was the point of trotting out the playground fight/grandpa story in this thread, Scylla? That Saddam was a monstrous evil nigger? **

Your behavior disgusts me. You sometimes post intelligent things, and you do fantastic research on occasion but this is just hateful shit.

Besides, I asked you first, and it’s not polite to answer a question with a question.

You first. What exactly are you trying to accomplish with this?

[Desmostylus]

I’m trying to work out why you post the same bullshit about Iraq over and over and over, when you know it isn’t true, and when you know that you’ll get called on it.

You chose to tell a story about how your grandpa taught you how win fights in the playground, as if that was some parallel with Iraq.

I’d read the other version before, and the contrast was interesting.

It does help to understand why you continue to post the stuff that you do. You refuse to learn, and you bring up the same incorrect points every time.

It’s a display of the same kind of bigotry that your grandpa taught you.

[Scylla]

Desmo:

I’d read the other version before, and the contrast was interesting.

It does help to understand why you continue to post the stuff that you do. You refuse to learn, and you bring up the same incorrect points every time.

That previous story shows my attitudes changing over and over again. It’s a chronicle of changing attitudes and learning. The voice in the first part is that of a child ignorant of the implications of his Grandfather’s languages and attitudes. Then he learns what it means and his attitudes towards his grandfather change. Then he experiences some of what formed his grandfather’s attitudes and they change again. He learns more and they change again, and then an event occurs which shows that sometimes actions transcend mere attitudes and posturing and he changes again.

The whole damn thing is an exercise in changing perceptions and learning. I don’t see how you can legitimately interpret it as a refusal to learn, or an example of stubbornness. If anything the viewpoints I express while narrating are incredibly malleable.

I’m pretty surprised you would take that from that post. It’s as if you read Horton hatches the Egg as an argument for abortion. Bizarre.

It’s a display of the same kind of bigotry that your grandpa taught you.

The fact that you and I disagree politically is an example of my bigotry? You’re not using the word correctly. How does my post display intolerance?

But you haven’t answered my question. What are you trying to accomplish with these empty attacks? I don’t believe you when you say you’re trying to figure out why I repeated myself. You didn’t ask a question. All you did was post a nugget from a post trying to make me look bad.

Ah yes, who could forget Scylla’s grandpa.

And then you post the quote from the thread. It doesn’t look to me like you’re trying to figure anything out. It looks to me like just an empty attack.