Point the first…you’re being a dick.
Point the second…you’re turning into a Melin.
Seriously dude, step away from the internet and take a few deep breaths.
I might be crufcified for this, but :
- I don’t see the connection between having an issue with heroism and not aknowledging the story about this flight. I say so, because I didn’t buy it, either. Not because I couldn’t believe that the passengers would attack the terrorists, but because it seemed obvious to me that in such a situation, the first things the authorities would do would be to have the plane shot down ASAP over a desert area. That’s what I assume I would have ordered, were I in charge.
A thread about this flight convinced me otherwise. I absolutely don’t remember the arguments that convinced me (it seems to me ** Broomstick ** was involved) but they were technical, not along the line of “how dare you disrespect these heroes, moron!”
2) That’s probably going to offend people, but it doesn’t seem to me that the actions of these people were extraordinarily heroic. I don’t know what I would have done in such a situation, but when you know you’re going to die anyway, what else is there to do? People generally aren’t deemed heroes for fighting back a potential murderer.
Heroic, in my mind, implies putting oneself at risk for a good cause when you’d have otherwise been safe (or at least safer). To stay on the 9/11 example, firefighters and police officers who entered a flamming building about to collapse were heroic, passengers of the flight weren’t heroic in my book because the only options were crawling under their seat or fighting back. There was no “running the other way” option.
I admit that “crawling under the seat” might be an option that many people would chose, but still it isn’t at all in the same league as : “hmmm…am I going to come back home and have a drink or will I run into the burning building/axe murderer/machinegun nest?” in my mind.
I’ve had discussions with you in the past, clairobscur, about what constitutes heroism.
Needless to say, your definitions don’t track well with mine, nor do they track with most people’s understanding of the term.
Actually, I think you might well be one of those people with a problem with heroism that the OP referred to:
Not at all. It’s not that I’ve an issue with heroism per se but with your concept of heroism which is, as far as I can tell : “If they’re flying the same flag as me, they’re heroes, if they aren’t, I couldn’t care less”.
I would assume that in these cases, you envision the ennemy as an evil terrorist, but what about the Iraki fighting an invading force vastly better equipped than he is? Why isn’t he as much of a hero? Isn’t he equally brave? Isn’t he equally patriotic? What’s the difference, besides the flag?
On the other hand, I’m one of those people who have a problem with patriotism. And absolutely can’t see any kind of relationship between heroism and patriotism.
To give an example : An american had his sister killed on 9/11. He enlists and is shipped to Irak. An Iraki had his sister killed by an american bomb. He takes his Kalashnikov. Both meet somewhere in Irak. Who is the hero? Why?
And this example isn’t that extreme. Even if both don’t actually have had a sister killed, they might very well have the same general mindset : “I’m here to fight these bloodthirsty murderers”.
Slight hijack:
Well Dio, I won’t comment on your political BS, because over the years I have concluded you’re a shrill whiny harpy.
However, your OP inviting EO to “suck my dick” appears to be uttered in a pejorative way, leading me to believe you consider dicksucking to be a bad thing.
Now, IIRC, I know you are a male, and married, I believe, so I would assume you are heterosexual
So, considering the context of your “suck my dick” remark, I have to conclude you are making a slur against gay men, many of whom probably enjoy the practice. (as would I probably, were I gay)
So, DtC, arbiter of All That Is Holy And Good On The SDMB, would you care to comment?
Now, before all you regs jump on my shit, there has been more than one thread over the years lambasting posters for words like cocksucker, buttfucker, dicksucker, etc as being at the least insensitive and and at the most, homophobic.
So, does Dio get a pass? That would be lame as shit.
Blow me.
Heh, I figured that would be the level of your response.
You’re good at spouting inane crap, but you rarely address criticism head on.
You’ve got to admit it’s more of a childish nitpick than a real criticism.
Well Marley, you may be right, but I have to sleep before work tomorrow, so I will be back to comment later.
I am sure the Defenders of Dio (DOD, that’s funny) will have my ass flamed, broiled and on a spit before I get back.
Sweet dreams…
Don’t worry about it too much. It’s just that that kind of nitpicking is really gay.
Stop it! That made me spew out my sleeping pills I laughed so hard!
You are funny.
Sorry, DtC, I’m siding with Evil on this one, although I’m sure that inside of a week He’ll post something political that leaves me seething.
I myself have encountered people seem to stand the thought of the Flight 93 passengers being regarded as heroes whose sacrifice helped save the day. And it’s an attitude that annoys me to no end, even when coming from people whose other political opinions I agree with (I was a Kerry supporter too).
I refuse to dishonor the deaths of those on that plane who chose not to go quietly, just because their story plays out like something that would warm the hearts of “Red Dawn” fans everywhere.
I can’t believe I’m agreeing with you, but I am.
I guess there’s a first time for everything. 
Let me start with your second paragraph.
I have no problem with the idea that Flight 93 could have been shot down. Had that proven to be the case, I’m sure most people would have been remorseful, but understood the necessity that drove the action. It’s no secret that fighter jets had been scrambled by that point. Had they reached the plane, I have no doubt they would have shot it down.
But that’s not what happened. As you say, it has nothing to do with whether or not one “respects the heroes”, but it has to do with the facts. Facts such as the black box recordings, the calls from passengers to loved ones, and the 9-1-1 emergency calls, which I have personally heard broadcast by CNN.
Which takes me back to your first paragraph. Since the facts are so well established and well known, at least in the United States, then it takes some serious denial of reality to claim something else happened. I seriously question VCO3’s motivation in denying the actual occurrences of that day, as bourne out by so many facts. Maybe he does have a problem with the idea of heroism. Maybe he’s just a looney. Maybe there’s another reason.
I’ll give you a pass, though, because perhaps over in France this didn’t get as much play.
I disagree. When you know you’re doomed to die, it’s oh so easy to just sit there. Why go to any effort when it’s not going to make any difference? If you’re going to die, you’re going to die. The only motivation to act at that point is to save others, a truly selfless act if there is any. It brought tears to my eyes when I first heard of it, it brought tears to my eyes when I later heard the 9-1-1 recordings, and to this day I am struck by the pure heroism of those who acted.
Honestly, I know the kind of people he’s talking about too. (usual caveat about the plural of anecdote not being data, and wrap a big pile of “in my experience” around this). Ironically, given the accusations flying, they’re usually but by no means always mild conservatives of the my-daddy-was-Republican-so-I-am-too type who for whatever reason are just ordinary guys, and they resent these sorts of heroes on some level either A) for being in the right place at the right time instead of themselves or B) because they don’t believe themselves capable of such heroism and it gnaws at them that it’s the ideal in their world.
It’s much more common in rural and downtrodden white areas, in my experience, and it’s only really terribly common among the set of people who also do things like “raise hell” and accept welfare checks because it’s not their fault they get fired–in other words, poor rural America.
Stand by for a verbal spanking from the “offendarati”.
Ironically, I get verbal spankings in my hometown (population 220, Allegheny Plateau region) because I’m a goddamn liberal, and I’m definitely more liberal/progressive than anything else.
I also, however, call it like it is, which is anathema to many of my chosen politics. =P
And some people will find an excuse to shit on it. Those are the people I’m talking about, despite the wishes of some that I would say “Ok, you got me. I’m REALLY talking about liberals.”
(for the more dense among us, you are now entering a sarcasm zone)
A liberal?! And I talked to you?! Crap. Fuck you, you commie pinko scum!!!
(you are now leaving the sarcasm zone)