Extreme is a relative term, and I reserve the right to decide for myself when any situation is extreme enough to abandon my own principles. I hope you do the same.
~Max
I don’t know what we are actually arguing about at this point, but you entered the thread saying “You don’t get to …”
Yes, I do get to. And I do.
American conservatism is now and always has had only one true principle: preserving the power of the status quo hierarchy.
Anything and everything else has been nothing but pretext, upheld only so long as to serve that one principle. Nothing you said changes that.
Max, did you ever give money to a GOP candidate? Have you (mostly) voted for GOP candidates? Support the GOP platform?
I believe you and I have had this conversation once before. I will admit that being skeptical of change “feeds into the preservation of the power of the status quo”. I will disagree with you that this is the purpose or motivation behind American conservatism, or more particularly, behind every individual American conservative.
You are free to your own opinion and personal inductive reasoning, and I am free to my own, but when you make such sweeping generalizations as “conservatism was always a lie” or conservatism “has been nothing but a pretext” for maintaining privilege, at least I will think of you as unreasonable.
As a final point, consider the number of American conservatives you have cast out by conditioning membership in that class upon having voted for Trump, Bush II, or Reagan. If you admit that a principled conservative would not have voted for Trump - which is itself debatable given the strong feelings about his opponent - remember that Bush II was elected in 2000 and 2004. A person who was old enough to vote in 2004 would be at least 33 today; a person who voted for Bush in 2000 would be at least 37 today. Someone who voted for Reagan in 1980 would be at least 55 years old by now. Almost the entire millenial generation - the single largest generational cohort in the country - reached voting age after Bush II had already been elected.
~Max
Pretty ,much. You got used, no one to blame except yourself. It’s forgivable.
No, yes (especially downballot where the competition is often a joke or write-in), parts of it.
~Max
Then yeah: you’re complicit. You helped cause this situation we’re in.
In the election of Donald Trump? Doubtful.
~Max
Nope; not doubtful at all. A certainty.
You supported the people who raised his funds, who got him electors, who created his ads. You supported the positions they had and gave them votes needed to keep them in politics, keep them fundraising, keep them making ads. You helped them and they helped Trump. You helped keep the GOP machine running and they gave that machine to Trump.
You may not like it, but there’s no doubt you are complicit in creating this situation we are all in, by your own words.
The question is: what are you going to do about it now?
I first voted in 2014 and I missed the primaries (too young) in a closed-primary state. I voted against the incumbent representative and against the incumbent governor. The very next election was the one for Donald Trump and Senator Rubio, both of whom I voted against.
~Max
Okay, so you’re young. That doesn’t change anything. As I said, the question is: what are you going to do about it now?
Do you agree that all the GOP talking points were lies designed to draw in unsuspecting voters? Or do you think this was just a few bad apples, and somewhere there’s a core of the GOP that is made up of honorable, decent people with sincerely held values like your own?
I voted in the presidential primaries earlier this year and the normal primaries last week. I encourage my friends to vote and with the handful of people who I am close to, I discuss the issues with intent to persuade.
~Max
I don’t think the whole GOP platform is “lies designed to draw in unsuspecting voters”. I think it is carefully crafted to appeal to enough people, with enough sincerety, with the aim of securing that party re-election. I also think it is self-contradictory; I can only “support” it by cherry-picking certain parts. I have little faith in my representatives in the state or national legislature, and little faith in the electorate as a whole.
~Max
“Not wanting to choose a policy that’s worse than what we have now” is no less liberal than it is conservative. Liberalism is all about choosing policies based on a rational examination of outcomes. What a liberal recognizes is that all the evidence shows that the status quo is intolerable and that something must change.
Sometimes the status quo is intolerable and I agree that sometimes, something must change. I suppose that makes me a liberal, sometimes.
But I think one of us has our terms mixed up. I don’t see liberalism as the opposite of conservatism, that honor belongs to radicalism. In my mind, conservatism is a form of caution and skepticism, to be distinguished from reactionary politics, that uncompromising desire to return to how things were.
~Max
There has never been a Republican conservative in modern American politics whose election has done anything other than preserve the interests of the hierarchy. This purported conservative (which it isn’t) value of prudence in support of American conservatism is and has always been nothing but purely theoretical, and conveniently so. It acts as a cover for the violence of the patriarchy upon everyone else.
Which brings me to my original point, you don’t have a problem with me or with conservatism, you have a problem with them. Therefore it is unreasonable for you to bash me or conservatism in general; or at least you have to say, “except for … who buy into conservative beliefs, and they think they are conservatives, but they really aren’t.”
~Max
This is a no-true-Scotsman argument. Nearly all current Republicans boast about their conservative bona fides. If you asked Trump or any prominent Republican leader (who you dislike) if they are conservative, they’d say yes.
You said it isn’t a fallacy if it’s true, but you’re literally engaging in the fallacy. You have your own personal definition of a conservative that doesn’t match what actual conservatives do and say.
You said it’s unreasonable to bash conservatism in general – are you differentiating between that and the current conservative movement? Who is an actual conservative in your view? (Maybe that’s a better question for some IMHO thread?)