I am trying to learn some debating skills, and am having an argument with a friend about Christianity.
I need some examples of slaughter of people by ‘Christians’ because others have not accepted Christianity. Can anyone provide me with examples and cites? Need answer fast! Thanks.
Well, it’s almost impossible to separate motive but the Holy Roman Empire (i.e. early Germany) underwent several campaigns to eliminate the Slavic pagan populations in the name of the Church. Mind you, this had the (I’m sure unintentional) side effect of expanding their lands. Bohemia (today the Czech Republic) and Poland both converted from paganism to Catholicism to protect themselves from the HRE’s expansionism since it removed the pretext for the invasions.
Thank you. This is the kind of stuff I need. I’m gonna google this stuff and find some more info so I can present my argument properly.
Look up the “Baptism of Poland” and you should find mention of it. You’ll need to dig around because the Wiki article on it sucks.
Again though, I’m of the opinion that most religious conflicts are pretexts for just taking the other guy’s stuff.
Czarist Russia had a plan to eliminate Jews. The plan was for 1/3 to convert to Christianity, 1/3 to be forced to emigrate, and 1/3 to be killed. Google “progrom.”
Does being the wrong kind of Christian count? After the Reformation, there was a period of flip-flopping between Catholicism and Protestantism among England’s monarchs; every time a new one took the throne, they’d start oppressing the other side.
The Holocaust?
“progrom” or “pogrom”?
When Ferdinand and Isabella unified Spain, Jews and Muslims had to convert, or emigrate, or else. A lot of the “conversos” were suspected of continuing to practice Judaism behind closed doors.
One famous example is the slaughter of Jews by Crusaders.
There were also some massacres of Jews in England at around the same time.
There certainly was an element of that in the medieval massacres of Jews.
It’s not somebody being killed, but there’s the case of Edgardo Mortara, who was taken away from his Jewish parents because their Catholic maid had baptized him. The parents could only have gotten him back by converting to Christianity.
But Jews couldn’t escape the Nazis by converting. The Nazis also killed Christians of Jewish descent.
It’s “pogrom”.
This is not an example because the idea was not to force Jews to convert, it was to eliminate the Jews along with others the Nazis hated.
FWIW,
Rob
Thanks guys. This is the kind of stuff I am talking about. So, the Holocaust isn’t a good example.
If you read through the history of the Crusades, not only are there examples of conversion by the sword, but in some cases, the Crusaders killed people not because they wouldn’t convert, and not even for religious reasons, but apparently mostly because they (the Crusaders) were armed and found unarmed people they could kill – including fellow Christians in at least one well-known case.
Not forced conversion, but, depending on where you’re taking the discussion with your acquaintance, possibly useful as an example of the urge to convert eventually subverting itself into more or less unadulterated bloodlust.
Charlemagne famously had the Saxons who refused to convert or kept following heathen practices after conversion beheaded.
In which case the wars of religion in France would surely count. And also the thirty years war in Germany. Both sides committed numerous massacres.
In general, it is better to start with the facts and then develop your conclusions rather than do it the other way round.
Thanks. My problem with Christianity, (there are lots and lots), but the problem closest to my heart is the way Christianity was handled with Black Slavery, of which I am well versed and ready to debate with anyone at the drop of a dime. The fact that many respected authors and historians have been known to state that Christianity has caused *all sorts *of carnage throughout history, lead me to be quite confident that I could find some specific examples to rub some salt into the wounds of those that might blindly cling to the idea that their entire religion is all about sunshine and rainbows, and then want to force feed me that nonsense, and call it fact.
Also, in general, it is better to hold one’s tongue when one feels the urge to give dishonest ‘helpful’ advice, until one considers that one may not know the whole story in a thread that includes “needs answer fast” in the OP.
Native Americans tribes in the Southwest were forced to convert to Christianity when the Spanish Conquistadors came through the area. Some were swayed by the priests and monks who came through first; others were enslaved and forced to convert. I don’t believe there was slaughter, but there were definitely murders.
I don’t know if you can really call it “subverting into bloodlust”–one big reason to have a Crusade in the first place was to get a whole lot of already-bloodthirsty knights to go ravage someone else’s lands for a change. Knights and lords were constantly fighting with each other at home, making life miserable for everyone else. The Church tried to control them by decreeing that they could only fight on certain days of the week, and not on the numerous feast days, but since knights weren’t really renowned for their piety and paid little attention, Crusades worked even better for getting them to go away and kill somebody else. (Or so says Barbara Tuchman.)
Crusaders routinely sacked and ravaged Christian cities on their way, and famously gave the Christian people of Constantinople a very hard time indeed. Conversion had little to do with it.
I’m just saying, quite a lot of the time religion is an excuse to indulge the natural human desire to go kill someone else, not the impetus. The Crusades are a pretty good example in some places.
Oh, I’m using this! It may not be slaughter, but it makes a good point, don’t it?