"Exit" signs, in Braille?

Factual Questions
1

(I’ve searched the archives, found threads on Braille instructions at the ATM, but nothing about this topic.)

Why do general information signs (“Exit”, “Restrooms” (“Women”, “Men”)) which are on the walls at the Guggenheim museum, also have the text represented in Braille? And likewise, why are there some (very few) Braille directional signs posted in the New York subway? This is the real question…. What purpose do these signs serve? My theory is that blind people don’t use these signs, don’t read them (in Braille), and the fact that they’re there really provides no benefit to blind people. So, why are they there?

For a blind person to read something in Braille, they must of course be aware that there is something printed in Braille within reach for them to read. They must physically touch the surface of the item in question. That’s why there’s Braille on drive-up ATMs, because blind people know that it’s there, know to expect it.

If a blind person doesn’t know that there is information available to them, in Braille, then… how would they know to read it? To look for it? If a blind person were in the Guggenheim and needed to find the restroom, would their first course of action be to randomly feel wide swaths of wall space on the off chance that there might be some useful information to be found? If they wanted to leave, would they feel the walls until they found the ‘Exit’ sign in Braille?

Security guard: “Can I help you, sir?”
Patron: “Yes. Is there any Braille in the vicinity that I can read?”
Or….
Security guard: “Can I help you, sir?”
Patron: “Yes. Where is the restroom?”

The Guggenheim is a museum of modern art in New York City. It displays almost entirely visual art, paintings mostly and some sculpture. None of the exhibits (that I have been to) have ever been “hands on”, nor do the offer an audio component. There is a taped lecture/tour available to listen to on headphones as you walk through the galleries, but the art itself isn’t actually making any noise.

I’m all for equal access for all people. I think reasonably accommodating those with physical challenges is a good thing for our society to do. I don’t think blind people should be excluded from museums just because they can’t see the art. I don’t even think it’s odd that a blind person would want to go to an art museum (maybe they see something in it I don’t (pun intended)). I see blind people all the time getting around just fine on the subway.

What I don’t see is blind people in the subway randomly feeling the structural support columns looking for that one sign in Braille. There might be 60+ columns on the platform, only one of which has a sign in Braille (e.g. 4-5-6 Lex/59th station). How would they know to read it, when they don’t even know it’s there in the first place?

Please be assured I’m not making fun of or belittling blind people or the Americans with Disabilities Act (which I suspect has something to do with this). But other than possibly a moral victory, what do blind people get from these signs? How does it help them? Does it help them?

2

Blind guy: Hey security guard, where’s the bathroom?

Security guard: There’s a sign over there. (pointing to the door of the bathroom)

Bling guy: Over where, I’m blind?

Security guard: (leading the guy to the sign on the door) Here’s the sign.

3

Yes, this does have something to do with the ADA. They replaced (and renumbered, in some cases) the signs for the rooms in my residence hall when I was a sophomore in college. The new signs had raised letters and numbers as well as Braille.

I noticed that the signs were placed in a very regular fashion. Many of the old room numbers were on the actual doors. The new room numbers were to the side of the door and at a specific height so that blind people would know where to look for them. I would guess that your average blind person would feel at about that height for any signs.

I don’t think that blind people just go around feeling for signs most of the time, however. It’s probably more like a double-check. They ask, “Where’s the bathroom?”, then they go to where the bathroom was said to be, and then they feel for signs (and, especially, a sign that says “Men” or “Women” so that they get the appropriate place. I doubt many women would appreciate a man in the women’s restroom, even if he is blind!) I, as a sighted person, use signs as a double-check, too. I don’t just wander into the third door on the right without checking to make sure that it says “Restroom” or “Women” first. If I am unfamiliar with a place, I’ll check for a sign that confirms that I have the right room number. Blind people probably like to do that, too, if they can.

I was going to say that the “purpose” for some of the signs that you see in the subway and the Guggenheim was to comply with ADA regulations, but, as I was thinking about it, I thought of another purpose. There are people out there who are not totally blind, yet they still cannot see very well. These are people who may use large-print books and things like that. A person like that could, perhaps, see that there was a sign on a column, but they couldn’t read it. Perhaps they know Braille, or perhaps the raised lettering would help give them enough of an idea what it says so that they wouldn’t be lost. They might also like to go to art museums because they still can see somewhat, but they don’t want to wander into the wrong restroom by mistake.

4

How about this situation…a blind person is accompanying someone who can’t read, such as a small child, to the museum. The child can’t identify the correct bathroom, so the adult double-checks while taking them in. (I’m ignoring the logical reason that it’s silly to carry two types of signs, and leave it up to someone’s judgement whether a blind person would “be interested” in some building enough to use the Brailled signs there)

Also, I can think of a good reason to mark exit signs in Braille and raised letters; what about a fire or power outage, and someone trying to leave the building? If it’s dark or excessively smoky, we’re all blind.

Corr

5

Touché, Tamex, that the signs serve as a “double check” to the visually impaired.

However, I must respectfully debate whether someone so visually impaired that they can’t find the restroom in the first place would be aided by a 2x4 inch sign in a neutral shade of “beige” posted on a slightly different shade of “beige” wall.

And as to your point about the college dorm rooms, that falls within my definition of “they (the visually challenged students/visitors in the dorm) know that the signs are there and expect to find them and thus go looking for them”. My OP questions when a visually challenged person enters an otherwise unfamiliar setting, how do they know there’s information (in Braille) available to them?

It’s Braille I’m talking about. Braille. A “written” communication device designed to aid people so visually challenged (“blind”) as to be unable to “read” otherwise. When coupled with static environmental signage, how does this actually aid those so visually challenged as so not to be able to find the bathroom in the first place? If you can find the bathroom door then you can certainly find the small sign, and if you can’t find the bathroom door then you probably can’t find the sign to direct you to the bathroom.

I find it difficult to comprehend a person so visually challenged as to NOT be able to find the restroom on their own to in fact be AIDED by a small, inconspicuous sign.

I am anticipating the answer “WELL IF ONLY ONE VISUALLY IMPAIRED PERSON WAS AIDED THEN HOW DARE YOU QUESTION THE VALIDITY OF SUCH A NOBLE … blah blah blah” so please… don’t flame me because I can’t understand how these Braille aids are actually aiding anyone. (And if you disagree with me… please, sensitively educate me instead of going off on a rant.)

How about the subway? “Well now ya go up da stairs and down to da udder side uh da platform, and ya take da stairs up t’ da Dubya train and ya gets out on toity toity and toid and ya right dere!” 96.3% of New Yorkers will understand these instructions (27.7% actually speak in this dialect) and I guarantee you the subway sign in Braille will be no more, and probably less, helpful than the above quote.

And hmmmmmmmmmm… Corrvin, in a dark, possibly smokey and scary situation, which “sighted” people are going to grope the walls looking for Braille signs? I, personally, will be groping for full-fledged doors. And the blind leading the illiterate to the bathroom? I suspect a child capable of identifying Braille signs is also capable of identifying the “male” and “female” outlines that preceded Braille on our bathroom doors.
(And I exaggerated the linguistic statistics, frankly only about 20% of New Yorkers speak this dialect.)

6

Jimbrowski, you are incorrectly assuming that blind people don’t see anything at all. This is very rarely the case. Most of them see something but they can’t see enough; it might fuzzy or it might not be bright enough. EXIT signs are written in big letters & the blasted things are supposed to be near the floor too, where you should be crawling when there is smoke, see?

7

Grrr!

Blindness, like many disabilities, is not an either/or situation but a spectrum.

YES, there are MANY people who are legally blind who can, nonetheless, notice there is a sign available for them to touch. Perhaps it’s a change in color - and YES, a slight difference in color is noticable to visually handicapped people who rely very subtle cues to make the most of what vision they have. Also, signs tend to be at a certain position in relation to doors and such - I once worked with a man totally blind who spent a fair amount of time feeling around doorways and on the surface of doors looking for signs, much like a sighted person would glance around a strange and unfamillar place looking for landmarks.

A blind person may not be able to see well enough to read, but may be able to see the red light so commonly associated with “EXIT” signs. They could then go to the red light they see and confirm it’s an exit through use of braille. Folks do remember these signs tend to be colored, too?

BTW - the comment about “so visually impaired they can’t find the restroom” is uncalled for. In a busy public place like a mall, for instance, it’s easy to find the restrooms. You listen for the sound of flushing toilets and running water. The sign serves as confirmation the door is really to the restroom and not to, say, a broom closet next to the restroom, or to the other gender’s restroom. So yes, the little sign IS useful you bigot.

8

I saw a show lately that talked about how only a small number of blind persons are learning braille. This is because of recordings and large print books. They are just not interested in learning braille, when these other means are available to them. The program presented it as a problem. About that time I went to a resort that had the rooms numbered in braille and thought “Who’s going to be able to use these?”

9

There was also a push in special education for awhile to try to “enhance” the vision of the blind and use recordings, large print, etc. and not to teach braille unless the person was totally blind. I’ve known two visually impaired people who wanted to learn braille and had to fight for the information because do-gooders decided - without consulting the person affected - that braille was “inferior” somehow and they really should learn to read print, even if doing so required 20 lbs of magnification and enhancement equipment. Which makes reading on the bus somewhat of a hassle. Since the blind can’t drive they spend a lot of time on busses and they, like everyone else, would like to read the newspaper and magazines which riding. Books on tape are not always a good alternative, especially in rougher neighborhoods, where tape players can be a target for thieves and a headset can block environmental noises that a blind person might want/need to know about. Anyhow…

It’s appears to be like the resistance some educators have to hearing impaired children learning Sign. Somehow they got the notion that they can force people to be normal (whatever that is). Me, I’d think being able to use both forms of communication would be the ideal, providing maximum flexibility. But what do I know? I’m just a stupid non-social worker normal person who listens to the blind and deaf people I’ve heard rant, guess I don’t have the education to realize the disabled don’t know what’s best for their own selves. You know, I don’t want that sort of education.

10

Easy there Broomstick, I’m no bigot.

Please take the time to re-read my posts in this thread, you have clearly misunderstood them. I explained a scenario I didn’t understand (“Exit signs in Braille?”), then asked “Why are the signs there? Who are they helping? And most importantly, HOW are they helping them?” If I may be so vain as to quote myself: “…I can’t understand how these Braille aids are actually aiding anyone…please…educate me…” I never advocated the removal of Braille signs, never suggested they should not be there, and never made any disparaging remarks about blindness or blind people.

Many thanks to the other Dopers who have answered my question. You too, ’stick, your petty rant, oh, sorry, “post” contained useful information.

I learned that blindness is not an either/or but a wide spectrum, much like deafness, and that some people who are considered “blind” can actually see well enough to locate a small sign, then read it to learn what it says. Nice touch there with the anecdotal evidence of working with a man who actually spent time feeling walls and doors. Great! Another question successfully answered by the Teeming Millions.

I was ignorant, ’stick, not a bigot. Learn the difference. Yes, it was a touchy topic I chose to ask about, but if people avoid discussing touchy subjects then the ignorance on these subjects will just be perpetuated. At least I had the guts to stand up, admit my ignorance, and ask to be educated. Maybe you could try this too? Start by asking for the meaning of the word “bigot”.

This question has been answered to my satisfaction, thanks to all who posted replies. And ’stick, if you have any other names to call me please go do it in the BBQ pit where it belongs (and I can ignore you).

11

I would also imagine that some visually impaired people have assistance animals who can at least recognize that “something on wall=useful information for master,” but they can’t read it for them. Just a WAG.

12

Just so we’re all clear on what, precisely, turned my post into a rant:

Jimbrowski said:

There is no one so “visually impaired” that they can’t find a restroom in a busy public place. As I said, there are many cues - flushing sounds, running water, echoes off tile walls, etc., that would allow even someone totally blind to find such a place, even leaving aside such obvious tactics as asking for assistance or training a guide dog to “find bathroom”. This sort of statement arises out of the misconception that to be blind is to be helpless, that when one is a visually handicapped person one needs assistance in even the simplest and most basic of human functions and reduces the blind to the status of children and infants. It’s insulting, demeaning, and offensive.

13

As to my post, there are positive things being developed for the use of braille. They can now print braille on both sides of the page, for instance.

14

Jeez Broomstick, which part of “…respectfully debate…” didn’t you understand?

Thank you very much for validating my OP, ’stick! So far you’re my biggest supporter! You have described the exact scenario I had in mind: where the Braille sign is NOT used as an aid by the visually impaired (henceforth “v.i.”) to find the bathroom (in your example finding it through audible cues instead (probably olfactory cues too, but let’s not go there)).

I never implied “v.i. people can’t find the bathroom.” Let me dumb it down a little and see if you can get a handle on what I meant: “if someone is so v.i. that they can’t find the bathroom door based on visual cues alone, how would they know there was a Braille sign nearby to aid them in finding said door?” It’s the signs I’m talking about, remember? Braille signs. Not bathroom sounds, not how v.i. people locate bathrooms in general, and certainly not bigotry. It’s all about the signs. Take your Ritalin and stay with me here.

As to your theory that all bathrooms in all buildings open to the public are all cacophonous enough to be heard at all times and from any distance……

Please take time to carefully re-read all the posts in this thread (that’s the second time I’ve had to ask you). The scenario I describe in the OP is clearly identified as taking place in an art museum. The directors of renowned (even un-renowned) art museums do not wish to have bathroom sounds echoing through the galleries, and take steps to avoid it (placement of bathrooms in the building, doors, acoustic ceiling tiles, etc.). Granted, v.i. people often become more sensitive, receptive, or “tuned in” to other environmental cues that the sighted my ignore or “tune out”. It is quite possible they may hear and recognize a distant toilet flush and use that cue to find the bathroom. This supports my OP question: how did the Braille sign aid them?

How about this…. a completely blind person walks in to the local mega-mall. Standing just inside the entranceway they decide they need to find the bathroom. HOW would they do that? I have been to a mall with large water fountains at either end, near the main entrances. Carrousel Mall in Syracuse, New York, has, you guessed it, a large merry-go-round complete with bells & music. Standing at these entrances the bathrooms are, I assure you, impossible to hear. HOW would they find the bathroom? By the various methods you describe (although I’m sure there are others): service animal (guide dog), ask someone, or methodically walk around the inside perimeter exploring all corridors and ancillary hallways while listening for bathroom sounds…. all of which would probably be successful, none of which I’d classify as “to be blind is to be helpless”, and none of which include the use of Braille signs. Once again (everyone now…) “It’s about the signs.”

Now that that’s cleared up, let’s explore what’s eating you…

OK, now we’re all clear on what, precisely, turned your post into a rant: you have a pet peeve AND you can’t tell the difference between discussing blindness and demeaning the blind. Guess what, ’stick, “blind” isn’t a dirty word and it’s not a taboo subject. Discussing blindness is not the same thing as declaring blind people to be helpless or “…the status of children and infants”. In fact, yours are the only posts that even bring up this misconception. Hmmm… very interesting…

My OP gave two scenarios involving v.i. people, one in an art gallery and the other in the subway, neither of which portrayed the v.i. person as helpless (quite the contrary).

Here I am trying to Fight Ignorance, and you make a sweeping generalization that sighted people believe v.i. people are “helpless”. Now THERE’S some ignorance that needs fighting.

Moderators – has this dead horse been flogged enough? Close up this thread?

Broomstick, take it outside.

15

heres one for you. some self service gas stations in Texas have braille instructions on the pump. WTF? if the person is blind but driving then God help us and if the blind person is the passenger then what kind of driver would have him fill her up?

16

<<heres one for you. some self service gas stations in Texas have braille instructions on the pump. WTF? if the person is blind but driving then God help us and if the blind person is the passenger then what kind of driver would have him fill her up?>>

A driver who was exceedingly pregnant. One who had a disability that made it difficult for them to get into and out of the car. Someone whose car fills up on the other side. A driver who’s wearing a fancy dress or nice shoes, and whose blind friend is also dressed nicely, but won’t get messed up by a few drops of gasoline.

Not everyone who can drive has full mobility; there’s a reason most chain gas stations have large signs saying “honk twice if you need assistance.” If it was rush hour, and the attendant was busy inside, why not ask your friend to fill up the tank for you?

Corr

17

Yep, the blind do use non-visual cues much more than the sighted do - it’s very hard to truly eliminate noises that act as cues to the those trained to interpret them.

Maybe for you, they are. Blind folks don’t have super-hearing, but they are better at interpreting what they’re hearing, better at distinguishing the different sounds in a cacaphony. A water fountain sounds different than a toilet flush.

Treating the blind as helpless children isn’t a new concept - it’s quite common. Just as treating as disabled person as helpless is quite common, whether they actually are or not. I’ve seen this happen to disabled friends and relatives in public places for years. There is no intention to be demeaning, but sometimes intentions don’t matter. If you don’t intend to step on my foot but do so it still hurts.

18

When I read Jimbrowski’s OP I got the impression he was trying to help blind people by suggesting that the placement of Braille signs was inconsiderate. I suppose in a way the ignorance of the sighted is an insult to blind people, but we are searching for enlightenment. I know that blind people use the Internet so maybe someone with first-hand knowledge might eventually solve this riddle for us.

I would think that perhaps the placement of Braille signs could be standardised in some way? Like perhaps they could always be at a certain height and at regular intervals so that no matter where in a room a blind person was, he would never be far from a sign with directions pointing him the right way?

19

Okey-doke.

bibliophage
moderator, GQ