My spouse’s dad passed away back in March 2022. Spouse has been dragging feet in working through the necessary Probate (no Will in place). Spouse wants to act as Personal Representative, in order to avoid paying lawyers. Spouse’s siblings are on board, thankfully there is no disputes arising (so far).
In researching online, there are a fire-hose of forms and steps we are trying to work through. We think we have the initial forms nailed down. Online instructions do not include a high-level “do this, then this will happen, then you do this…”
But, what is missing for me in all of the instructions is what is meant by “file this form”. Here is where the “Explain it like I’m five” is needed. I have zero experience with legal proceeding. Does this mean I am supposed to drive to the court and stand in a line at a counter and hand over forms? Or is there a place I can mail them (not clear)? Or do I need some sort of Probate Court appointment scheduled to appear before an official to hand them over?
The challenge is that we live in another state so physical presence is an obstacle.
Call the relevant offices themselves – they’ll likely be willing to answer all your questions. In a similar situation, I also tried to find guidance online, but it wasn’t enough, and a couple of short phone conversations cleared everything up.
Also, if you’re trying to avoid paying lawyers but get stuck on a challenging legal question, try posing it on avvo.com.
Yep - clerks of court are generally very helpful. Just a heads up - don’t call them right after they open on a Monday morning or last thing on a Friday afternoon - the times any employee might either be facing a work rush or ready to head out of the office.
When you say “spouse”, I assume you mean YOUR spouse, not the decedent’s?
Regarding an attorney, we may end up going that route, if it becomes clear that the work is too onerous. If it were up to me, I would engaged legal support right off the bat, as I’m the type to get things done. But, my spouse is not me and they have their own style, yah?
If it is a straightforward estate with no likely disputes (and possibly little value), why just toss a few thousand at a lawyer?
What do you believe the estate is comprised of? Homes/property? Considerable/valuable personal property (collections, etc.)? Complicated investments?
If the dead guy just owns a house/car, possessions as most average folk own, and pretty straightforward investments, it really isn’t a big deal to close out an estate. This kind f thing gets done all the time. All it takes is one person to take the lead, communicates clearly, and keeps good records.
I suspect this being more of a “couples dynamic” issue, than a probate matter. Your spouse - and her sibs - don’t see any need to move quickly. Whereas you feel there is no need to delay. As far as THAT is concerned, I suggest you just cool your jets. Stay out of it, and don’t bring it up, but be available to assist when/id your spouse asks for help. (Even if things get complicated/expensive as a direct result of her and her siblings’ choices.)
Yes, that is an insightful observation. The risk to me, learned from experience, is that once I am called upon to assist in any way, I am now subject to blame storms if anything causes stress from any direction. We put the FUN in disfunction.
Clerks and such at court house cannot give legal advice, asking for help may be construed as such. A cousin of mine works at a county court house. She says almost daily people come in and ask if the forms are filled out correctly, she cannot and will not give them advice. This of course aggravates some folks but all she can tell them is that she is not an attorney and cannot give legal advice. She can only accept the forms as submitted. Another option that would be cheaper than an attorney is an independent para-legal. In most states they are allowed to fill out forms with the supplied information. If there are any questions, they will direct you someone (an attorney) that can provide the answers.
My wife has been in a year long saga since her asshole of a dad died last December. As your wife is dealing with the estate, she is also likely dealing with the loss of her dad. I’ve seen more than one person avoid settling an estate b/c somehow that allowed them to put off dealing with their loss.
You know how things work between you and your wife. But I strongly advise that you offer your opinion, then shut the fuck up. Expect her to confuse emotion with efficiency, and to revisit the same things repeatedly. Just support her however you feel you can.
You are an attorney if I remember correctly. As a layman, I find the legal requirements are sometimes so convoluted that I don’t know what I don’t know. For example, I had a city infraction case and the city attorney tried to have my motion for the dismissal at the pre-trial hearing thrown out because according to the rules I didn’t know I had to submit it in writing before I pled and that apparently asking for a trial was me pleading innocent. How the fuck was I supposed to know that?! I’m not an attorney! I don’t even know how to get a copy of the rules he quoted. I didn’t even know to look for the rules for city court because no mention is ever made of them on the city’s/city’s court website.
So yeah if you know how to do probate or just general law then I’m sure it’s easy. But for someone who has never done it before, do you really want to mess up the probate because you didn’t know to file Form 16-31K to all interested parties? Or the creditors come back after the fact because you wrote them a letter but didn’t serve them notice?
They can’t give advice on filling out the forms, but they should be able to give advice on how to file the forms: location, times, whether it can be done by mail, and so on.
A lot depends on how much time you have, and how much of a hurry you’re in. If you have no pressing need to distribute the estate, and if you’ve got time to do things over because you didn’t get the order right the first time you can absolutely do probate yourself. The clerks at the relevant offices will insist on you doing it properly, so you can’t get it wrong, but it can be frustrating to go through the effort of filing a form and then finding out you needed to file a different form first. It’s like waiting an hour in line at the DMV and then finding out you were in the wrong line.
If there’s not enough time to do it over a lawyer is a good investment. If none of the heirs are in a hurry, and you’re willing to take a year or two to do what a lawyer would bang out in six months it’s one of those things you can’t do wrong, because they’ll make you do it over until you do it right.
I guess if it’s a simple matter - “we wind up the estate and split it evenly among the siblings” then this should be simple. After all, who’s going to quibble?
Where it gets interesting is when Bob complains that “Alice got a few thou from mom and dad to buy her first house, and that should be deducted”. Alice says “Yeah, but dad bought Charlie a car when he was in college, what about that?” and the fur starts flying.
Nothing brings out the sibling rivalry like a good inheritance fight.
But assuming we’re not talking about a large amount of money and any disputes - who’s going to argue whatever the forms say? I presume if the form is incorrect as submitted, the state office will just send it back with a request for correction?
Another interesting thing to know is - how long can you wait after all the submissions before it’s too late to challenge?
And keep track of any fees that the state pays for things like selling a house, etc. Having a tidy accounting and full disclosure will go a long ways to suppressing someone’s fear that the others are pulling a fast one on them.
In our case, I fear this will end up being an insurmountable hill. My spouse is super sharp about a lot of things, but for some reason when it comes to any number with a dollar sign nearby, the brain just does not give evidence of operating. So, the prospect of keeping any type of accurate accounting? Why, we might just as well turn into chinchillas and sing arias while living on Mars.
And don’t forget things will be rolling in for weeks and months. You’ll be getting bills from creditors that will have to be paid by the estate, and there will be old forgotten bank deposits or piddly life insurance payouts from one civic organization or club they belonged to that will have to be added into the assets. It’s a lot of paperwork, and just when you think you’re done something else pops up. Don’t forget that dying doesn’t absolve you of paying your taxes, although someone else is going to have to file them for you. If someone dies early in the year that’s going to be hanging over the estate until the following January.
It doesn’t require a keen legal mind, you don’t need to be Clarence Darrow to execute this process, but attention to detail and organization are going to be necessary.
I can give one anecdote that suggests getting a lawyer. I have a good friend (and mathematical collaborator) who volunteered to administer the estate of his father-in-law. The problem is that there is a house in the estate that is occupied by a niece who wants to stay there. The family is not opposed to making an arrangement for that but has been squabbling for five years over the details of the arrangement and my friend has been stuck with trying to mediate. It has occupied the last five years of his life (and destroyed our collaboration). Get an effing lawyer already.
Call your county clerk’s office and ask for the probate desk. They often deal with normal people trying to get through probate and can explain things in simple terms and may have a packet of what you need. You may have to get forms signed in front of a notary. Your bank can often do this for free. Then you file the forms with the probate desk, which means getting the forms to them. You don’t have to go in front of a judge. If you wait a really long time to begin probate (2 years?), then you may have to file in district court and present before a judge.
You have to initially file some forms saying that your spouse will be the executor. Once the probate desk approves them, your spouse will be executor and can start dealing with the estate. Your spouse can then get access to dad’s financial accounts and start disbursing the estate.
Find out what the default distribution is in your state, called “intestate succession”. Likely it will be everything divided among the dad’s kids, but shares may also go to siblings or parents.
The simplest case is when the estate is just cash since that can easily be split. If there are possessions, then it can get complicated since different heirs may value the possessions differently. The executor may end up selling or splitting the possessions. Splitting possessions is where lots of acrimony starts, so try to work things out as best as possible.
The executor does need to keep an accounting of the estate. Make sure there is a listing of what was in the estate, what value each thing had, and who got what. Even if things go smoothly now, there’s no guarantee that someone won’t get miffed in the future. Keep all the documentation to avoid any issues. Once everything has been distributed, the probate is closed and a form is filed with the county clerk saying it’s complete.