Explain the "New Covenant" thing to me.

Great Debates
1

Over in the “Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior?” an exchange between IAMMYOWNGOD and **Polycarp ** came down to the issue of the “New Covenant”, at least that’s how I read it. This is a common area of debate in religious discussions, and I’d like some clarification on it.

If I understand the concept correctly (and I probably don’t) Jesus brought with him a new covenant that released Christians from some/many/all of the laws put forth in the Old Testament, so…

  1. Is this new covenant idea stated in the New Testament explicitly or implicitly?

  2. Where?

  3. Which laws does it cover?

  4. Which laws can the devout Christian ignore, and how does he know which ones they are?

  5. Which ones **must ** the devout Orthodox Jew follow?

2

In Luke 22:20

And also 2 Corinthians 3:6

As to what laws the devout Christian has to follow, that’s a matter of debate amongst devout Christians, and in the past, they’ve killed each other over it.

The devout Orthodox Jew has to follow all of the ones it’s possible to follow, although obviously, if something is impossible to follow, like offering sacrifices in the temple, he doesn’t have to follow it.

3

The actual concept of a New Covenant actually emerges in the Hebrew Scriptures with the prophet Jeremiah-

Jeremiah 31:
31. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35. Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36. If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37. Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

Of course, Jews & C’tians disagree on how this NC applies. Interestingly, Jeremiah says it will be established with Israel & Judah, no mention of the Gentiles (there is a C’tian explanation to this of which a lot of C’tians aren’t aware.)

Re the applicable laws- most Christians would agree that the Ten Commandments apply (with differing interpretations on the Sabbath & Sunday)- Jesus & the Apostles certainly repeat them enough. Also, Acts 14 & 15 reinforce what are known in Judaism as the Noachic Laws, God’s basic law for all humanity- against idolatry, blasphemy, murder, illicit sex acts, theft, cruelty to animals/eating blood, and for establishing courts of justice. Laws of animal sacrifice are totally out (a VERY few C’tians differ on this but the Letter to the Hebrews seems to maintain this). Various OT festivals & Kosher food laws are held by Paul in Romans 12 & Galatians to be matters of personal conviction.

AFAIK, Orthodox Jews must follow all laws which can be followed. The absence of the Altar of Sacrifice & an active Priesthood exempts them from the Sacrificial Laws. Also, AFAIK, they haven’t worked out a way to implement the Sabbath-year & Jubilee laws.

4

References to the new covenant in Luke, 2 Corinthians, and Jerimiah are pretty vague and could mean anything. Acts 15 is a little more specific (there’s nothing about it in Acts 14, by the way). In Acts 15 the question is asked whether Gentiles need to be circumcised to be saved. Paul, Barnabus, James and others debated this and decided that that was too much to ask. James stood up and said:

Then they sent off Judas and Silas to deliver the message about the new rules:

So we’ve got the ten commandments, couple of rules about what you can’t eat and a general proscription against sexual immorality. Other than that we’re good to go.

By the way, I love the way verse 29 ends. “You will do well to avoid these things.” None of this “you will burn in the fires of hell for eternity” stuff, just a gentle request.

5

Sorry, I misremembered RE Acts 14

6

The new Covenant? Right here. First Thomas Covenant book in over 20 years. :smiley:

7

Yeah, I loved the first series of those books. Never got beyond the first collection however. Unfortunately for anyone who is tired of this debate, I have used the search function to find this discussion, rather than start my own, discussing the fact that in Q: About Old Testament Law, I posted reasons that Jews no longer practice animal sacrifice, while admitting I have no ideas why christians no longer practice things that jews still do such as eating only kosher foods, and wearing yalmukas . All popery aside (that is to say, he wears a hat), why do individual christians follow these laws. I posted the following verses showing why they should:

Lev 23:41 “It shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations.”

Mt.5:18-19
“Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.”
My reading of the verse say that it either means that the laws of the torah/old testament must be followed until the second coming of jesus, assuming there will be one.

The responses included an intelligent response to why jews no longer practice sacrifice, and a non-satisfactory answer to the christian side of the argument, along with suggestion to take this to GD. So here I am.

P.S. The verses earlier in this thread appear to contradict the quotes I have posted. Is it possible that the verse talking about a new covenant were added later, and not spoken by this Jesus guy after all?

8

I thought I should add a few more supports against the “New Covenant” thing, since I have not heard an answer, and this will bump it back to the top of the list.

Ps.119:160
“Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.”

Lk.16:17
“It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.”

9

What is missing from that interpretation is that Christ is himself the true Law. The law of the Old Testament was a shadow and a prefigurement of Christ. It hasn’t been nullified, but fulfilled: its purpose was to point to Christ, and now that Christ is come, He is the Law that we are to follow. We are not saved by living in obedience to a list of regulations, but by living in Christ.

Again, these should be read with “word” and “law” referring to Christ, not the literal words of the Torah.

The Dialogue of Justin Martyr and Trypho as well as John Chrysostom’s Commentary on the verses you are referencing are a good place to start on the historical treatment of this issue by the Church.

10

hmm…

I have saved these to my hard drive, and will look through them when I have a chance. If I still don not understand I will post back here. I am not holding very high hopes for them so far, for the phrases you have quoted sounds an awfully lot like using words for things other than what they mean.

11

If you want to understand the bible you need to remember that God can change the rules on you if he wants.

First you couldn’t eat animals or execute murderers.

Then after the flood you could eat anything, and you were required to execute murderers.

Then came circumsion and after that Moses with all these weird laws.

Then comes this guy Paul who says you don’t need any laws…

If you really want to understand the bible read this…The Plot

12

<sigh> Yes, if you look at it one way, it can be viewed as God changing the rules. This fails to take into account what the fathers have taught, however, namely that the old law was never meant to be the one and final expression of God’s Word, but was a temporary concession to human weakness. The Torah can lead one to the Word of God, but Christ IS the Word of God, and now that He has come there is no more need for the figures of the old law.

13

To either clarify or muddy things further, there is no ONE Older Covenant, but a sequence of them- the Covenants with Adam, with Noah, with Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, with Moses, and with David & Solomon, THEN finally the Newer Covenants with Jesus & His Church. With each covenant was a messiah-figure & an alteration/amending of the rules according to circumstances (for example, God’s displayed His mercy towards Cain by giving him a protective mark but humanity took God’s grace for granted & became infested with violence- hence the Noachic Covenant in Gen 9 commanded execution).

In Jesus, both God & humanity were slain & raised- so were the Older Covenants & their attendant laws. Adamic access to Eternal Life, the essential laws of humanity given to Noah, & Davidic Kingship were transferred through Christ to His people of all ethnicities. Thus, those laws which made distinction between Jew/Israelite & Gentile were nullified (Jewish & Gentile C’tians are indeed free to circumcise, eat only kosher, & keep Sabbath & the festivals- Gentile C’tians are not to be held to those laws, Jewish C’tians may be wise to keep them in witness to theire fellow Jews. The total repudiation of Jewish identity by the Gentilizing Church was a major tragedy in Christian theology & practice, leading to a host of abuses through Church history. I will note that I do see the land covenant to Israel as still relevant though not unconditional.)

As to every detail of the Law being in effect till Heaven & Earth passed away, I will say that the generation of 30-70 AD did indeed see a passing away of Heaven & Earth with the Death & Resurrection of Jesus (assuming one believes He is One with the Creator God) and with the destruction of the Priesthood-Sacrificial-Temple system.

14

Two minor points:

Scott_plaid: yarmulke wearing is not a true requirement, even among Jews. Wearing a yarmulke is custom, a reminder that G-d is above you.

FriarTed: Sabbath year and Jubilee laws only apply in Israel; they’re what’s known as “commandments that depend on the land [of Israel].” I do know that some Jewish farmers have begun to observe the Sabbath year. Because Jews can’t eat from a Jewish-owned, Israeli farm during that year if the farm doesn’t observe the law, we’re always more careful about imported produce during the Sabbath year. I don’t know about observance of the Jubilee law.

Also, in what way do you think covenants with David and Solomon altered the religion? The covenant with Noah was for all people, not just Jews; the covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was a promise that there would be a sustained relationship with their descendants, who were not yet actually members of a formal religion; the covenant in Exodus is not actually with Moses but with the entire Jewish people, and it was actually the establishment of the religion, which was to remain forever. In what speech to either David or Solomon did G-d change the religion?