Explain the plot of Sicko to me

[Loach]

@Atomicktom

At one point, the screen went blank and a disclaimer anounced something to the effect that “Department of Homeland Regulations prevent us from explaining how we got into Cuba”

There is a regulation stating you can’t say “Go to Canada, get on a plane”?

[Liberal]

You mean you’d be surprised?

[Sarahfeena]

@Loach

There is a regulation stating you can’t say “Go to Canada, get on a plane”?

Well, you can definitely do it, but if I did, I wouldn’t say so in a movie.

[Loach]

@Sarahfeena

Well, you can definitely do it, but if I did, I wouldn’t say so in a movie.

Why not? Its common knowledge.

[Sarahfeena]

@Loach

Why not? Its common knowledge.

I’m sorry, I wasn’t clear…what I mean is that I wouldn’t say in a movie that I had done it. It’s common knowledge that it can be done, but that doesn’t mean the State Department would look kindly on it. I believe it’s against US law to do so…it’s just easy to get away with, as long as you don’t advertise it in the media.

[randwill]

@Liberal

Is there anyone alive who honestly doesn’t see “setup” written all over that? I challenge any Doper to haul a group of sick people through the same scenario and see whether Che Guevara’s daughter comes running out to greet them. For that matter, just get a random group of native Cubans to do it. Is there any reason we should not believe that their best medical care is reserved for their most important people just like their housing is?

As someone pointed out in one of the other two threads here about “Sicko”, the 9/11 rescue workers were not able to get the care they needed in America under any circumstances, but were able to get it in Cuba, no matter what the reason.

[John_Mace]

@tdn

Yeah, and that pisses me off. I think that Moore is a brilliant film maker who could make brilliant films, if only he didn’t hobble himself with his own shrillness so often.

I’m glad that at least his boatmates got medical attention. If they hadn’t, the exploitation factor would have been really over the top.

And what was the outcome of of his $12,000 donation to the wife of that website guy? How did the guy respond? What’s the URL?

Moore Watch.

[Sarahfeena]

@randwill

As someone pointed out in one of the other two threads here about “Sicko”, the 9/11 rescue workers were not able to get the care they needed in America under any circumstances, but were able to get it in Cuba, no matter what the reason.

So it doesn’t matter that the reason might have been a propaganda move for Cuba, to mislead the world into believing that the average Cuban gets that kind of care?

[Bridget_Burke]

@Sarahfeena

So it doesn’t matter that the reason might have been a propaganda move for Cuba, to mislead the world into believing that the average Cuban gets that kind of care?

Well, I hesitate to respond, as I haven’t seen* Sicko* yet. (And you have, no doubt.)

The subject of the movie is the problem with health care in the USA. If the 9/11 Responders had been able to receive care here, Cuba would have had no opportunity for “propaganda.”

And we have people in this rich country who cannot get the health care available to “average” Cubans.

[Sarahfeena]

@Bridget Burke

Well, I hesitate to respond, as I haven’t seen* Sicko* yet. (And you have, no doubt.)

The subject of the movie is the problem with health care in the USA. If the 9/11 Responders had been able to receive care here, Cuba would have had no opportunity for “propaganda.”

And we have people in this rich country who cannot get the health care available to “average” Cubans.

I haven’t seen it either, so I am only speaking here in hypotheticals. In my mind, for the Cuba segment to have any meaning, the following would have to be true:

1. That the care these US citizens received in Cuba is care that is routinely given to all Cubans.

2. That the reason that the US citizens received this care had nothing to do with the Cuban government wanting the world to believe that it is routinely given to all Cubans.

I have extreme doubts about both of these points…and if that care is not routinely available to all Cuban citizens, then what has been proved?

[lalenin]

@Bridget Burke

And we have people in this rich country who cannot get the health care available to “average” Cubans.

I very much doubt that you can make a case for backing up that statement. I have not yet been through the medical system in the US, but everything I have seen tells me that even the poorest patients can get health care in the US. Maybe expensive care, but they can get it.

That is not the case in Cuba, sure you can get to a doctor, and yes the doctor might diagnose you with appendicitis, but unless you have cash to pay the ambulance driver, and cash to buy sutures and gloves you will not be operated on. That is not just something I pulled out of the air, that is an actual event that I witnessed. And since the government runs both the health care system and the courts you have absolutely no recourse to complain. Especially since criticizing the government is illegal.

[tdn]

@John Mace

Moore Watch.

Thanks for that.

It’s a little hard to find comments about the donation, but I found a few. The wife seemed genuinely grateful. Jim himself seemed grateful, but with reservations. He accuses Moore of not caring about his wife, but making the donation for a publicity stunt, a sentiment that I sort of share. Moore made an anonymous donation, but then blew his anonymity big time by boasting about it on the Big Screen. Very nice gesture on Moore’s part, but for dick reasons.

What was less heartening was comments by Jim’s detractors, calling Jim an ungrateful prick, and wishing death on his wife. I’m sure there were more supportive comments, but I didn’t see any posted. The nasty comments were themselves commented on as being “typical of Moore-ons.” For a site that prides itself on attcking Moore for his simplifying of facts, I remain unimpressed.

But that site did explain a little about how Moore got into Cuba legally – he went as a journalist.

[randwill]

@Sarahfeena

I haven’t seen it either, so I am only speaking here in hypotheticals. In my mind, for the Cuba segment to have any meaning, the following would have to be true:

1. That the care these US citizens received in Cuba is care that is routinely given to all Cubans.

2. That the reason that the US citizens received this care had nothing to do with the Cuban government wanting the world to believe that it is routinely given to all Cubans.

I have extreme doubts about both of these points…and if that care is not routinely available to all Cuban citizens, then what has been proved?

He’s proved that the 9/11 rescue workers can get the medical care they needed in Cuba, even if it was for Cuban propaganda reasons, that they were refused in their home country. The refusal of the American medical system to effectively treat these and many other American citizens in a fair and equitable and timely and affordable manner is what the movie is about. It’s not a movie about the Cuban government and medical system.

[Sarahfeena]

@randwill

He’s proved that the 9/11 rescue workers can get the medical care they needed in Cuba, even if it was for Cuban propaganda reasons, that they were refused in their home country.

And what does THAT prove?

The refusal of the American medical system to effectively treat these and many other American citizens in a fair and equitable and timely and affordable manner is what the movie is about. It’s not a movie about the Cuban government and medical system.

OK, but if those things don’t happen in Cuba, either, what’s the point of the comparison?

[randwill]

@Sarahfeena

And what does THAT prove?

That the American health care system is fucked.

[Cheesesteak]

@randwill

He’s proved that the 9/11 rescue workers can get the medical care they needed in Cuba, even if it was for Cuban propaganda reasons, that they were refused in their home country.

I suspect that if Moore paid for it, those people could very easily have gotten care right here in the good old US of A. Instead, he goes to Cuba where propaganda is just as valuable to the government as money, and pays for them to get care there instead.

It proves nothing other than payment can get you medical care.

[Moriarty]

I think the Cuba trip was also done to support a theme underlying the whole movie: that there are people, all over the world, who are kind, decent, and want to take care of each other. At one point, the American firefighters meet up with Cuban firefighters, and there is this mutual respect and admiration that is demonstrated. Beyond his publicity stunt (i.e. even a poor country like Cuba can afford to provide good medical care), Moore tries to show us a common humanity that is lacking whenever some people are denied the life-saving treatments that all of us deserve.

[randwill]

@Cheesesteak

I suspect that if Moore paid for it, those people could very easily have gotten care right here in the good old US of A. Instead, he goes to Cuba where propaganda is just as valuable to the government as money, and pays for them to get care there instead.

It proves nothing other than payment can get you medical care.

As the movie shows, a lot of people who pay for medical insurance, or have it provided by their employers, CAN’T get the care they need under the American health care system. Not to mention the 48 million here with NO health insurance.

But, yeah, you’re right, if you have all the money you need to pay for it or have someone like Michael Moore paying for you, you can get the medical care you need in the U.S. Are you in either of those categories? I wish I was.

[Sarahfeena]

@randwill

That the American health care system is fucked.

How does it prove that?

@Cheesesteak

I suspect that if Moore paid for it, those people could very easily have gotten care right here in the good old US of A. Instead, he goes to Cuba where propaganda is just as valuable to the government as money, and pays for them to get care there instead.

It proves nothing other than payment can get you medical care.

This is exactly right. There is no free lunch, and certainly no free medical care. Somehow, someway, there has to be a tradeoff. As you say, in this case, the free advertsing for Cuba was more valuable than cash, that’s all.

[John_Mace]

I don’t think we can have a rational discussion about the Cuba deal until we all get on the same page wrt these questions:

What are the details of the ailment that the firefighters were suffering from?
What was the reason given by their insurance companies for not giving them the treatment they requested?
What specific treatment was given to them in Cuba and what was the effect*? Was this some sort of one-shot deal, or are they going to have to go back to Cuba for additional treatment(s)?

*The news story that started the first thread in GD where we discussed this said it was some sort of experimental treatment that wasn’t approved for use in the US, but I don’t know if that is true or not.