Expressing disapproval of aspect of someone else's culture

Great Debates
1

Well, I didn’t see much in the way of active threads on racism. I wanted to keep the juices flowing on that subject. Here is something that I have had trouble with.

I have several friends who teach public school in Baltimore. One of them regularly gives a questionaire to her students (9th and 10th graders) near the beginning of the year. It asks a lot of questions like “What do you want to do with your life?” “What’s your favorite color?” etc… She started doing it to get an initial feel for their reading and writing skills. However, it came to her attention that I high number of black females wrote that they wanted to get pregnant and go an welfare like their mothers. This is scary. Do you think they really plan this? Are they just writing this in protest of a silly questionaire? My friend, the teacher, thinks that they are being honest and is very frustrated because these are frequently some of her best students.

Ok, another thing. I’ve talked about this before, I am sure. I see a lot of blacks panhandling in downtown Bmore. Some of them are on lunch break from decent jobs. I know one guy personally who makes around $40k and panhandles for lunch money on a daily basis. I think that this makes it harder for the people who really need the handouts. I don’t see any other races doing this. I see other races panhandling only when they have to.

Ok, now do you all think I’m a racist? Is it my white middle class perspective that makes me angry at these things? If I am in the wrong here, please explain it to me carefully and patiently. These topics are sensitive subjects and some patience could pay off here. I am anxious to learn. If I am right, and these things should make me angry, how can I express myself without many people immediately calling me a racist?

I would have posted this in GQ except that I think there is going to be a debate here about what constitutes racism. I think that I have some serious problems with a particular sub-culture of blacks in inner cities (I’ve seen a bit of this in Minneapolis too). I don’t think it’s their racial genes that makes them this way I think it’s the environment they grow up in. Is this racism? Depending on how this goes I may describe some problems I have with my own culture and with some other cultures. I don’t know of any culture that is perfect, but this sub-culture I’m talking about in Bmore is so inherently self destructive and dependant upon other cultures for support that I think it needs to be abolished. I don’t think cultures this weak need to be preserved.

Actually, I believe that the results of some welfare reform and an exodus of blacks from the city are successfully eradicating this culture in Bmore. (No imformation as yet on whether the culture is fading or just moving) Unfortunately the panhandling thing is shared by more sections of black culture than just this one. So, it remains a problem.

2

Interesting. In SF lots of middle class white kids from Marin panhandle. Therefore your idea that other races don’t do it is wrong. The fact that you would suggest that it’s a racial issue suggest a small prejudice in my mind. But, you’re not a racist. If you continue to insist that only blacks would do it, in the face of my evidence otherwise, than yes you would be a racist.

3

If I may answer without really answering…

To an extent, I think racism is natural, but it’s something that “civilization” (depending how you define it) should overcome.

Let’s face it, stereotypes exist for a reason, right or wrong. “White Men Can’t Jump” for example. Is it the same as saying “Black Men Can’t Think”?

4

• I, too, see a lot of white people panhandling in New York who look highly suspicious.

• As for that school questionanaire, I strongly suspect the girls were being sarcastic.

• You can’t like EVERYTHING about EVERYONE. There are certain subgroups in the black community who tick me off—there are also subgroups of whites who do so (“ig’nernt white trash,” to be specific). I’m sure if I were more familiar with the Asian, Indian, Hispanic, etc., communities, there would be a number of THEM I’d dislike, too. As long as you don’t dislike people simply BECAUSE they are black, or gay, or whatever.

5

Eve wrote:

Hey! I resent that!

6

Ok, I seem to be off the hook somewhat here. Let’s see if any of this gets me back on it or if I’m actually free to swim away.

I have, in the past, advocated a law (a law that was passed in Bmore but is not enforced) making it illegal to give money to panhandlers. People seem to react to this in one of three ways.

  1. They call me a racist. (This one sort of puzzles me. Are they assuming that all panhandlers are Black?)
  2. They are outraged that their right to give away money might be taken away.
  3. They think it’s a great idea.

When I support welfare reform, again I get called racist. When I support enforced curfews for minors, I get called racist. When I criticize the parents who screamed when their children were given classes in estheticly unpleasing temporary buildings while an addition was being built on the school, I get called racist. When I say that black women’s hair turns me off sexually, I get called racist. When I mention that another question on that questionaire is “What do you think the percentage of blacks in America is?” and that many students answer 50-80%, I get called racist.n When I comment that black to white racism results in increased black to white racism, I get called racist.

Can I say anything about blacks or about laws that affect blacks or perception of blacks without appearing racist? Maybe just being white gets me called racist. Is there anything I can do to alleviate this problem?

7

“Is there anything I can do to alleviate this problem?”

Yeah. Stop saying those things. You’re obviously pissing people off.

8

Move to Japan, maybe.

9

I don’t know if I’d call you a racist. Definelty a whiner.

**

Well if the majority of panhandlers are black then this could be an apropriate answer. take it this way, if you proposed legalizing lynchings people would call you racist. Theoreticly not only blacks get lynched, but at the same time…

**

I must admit I do not understand this. It’s probably the way you say it.

Well, I could comment on some of the stuff you mentioned and not be called racist. It’s probably the way that you weave your observations into conversation. Again, you strike me more as a whiner than a racist.

10

I think that in the US, a lot of the use of the word “racist” is reactionary. I think that VileOrb’s above examples are reactionary use of the word “racist”. That stated, I also think that racism is quickly evolving from the overt, upfront “I hate black people” to the more subversive view “I think that we should have the same expectations of all people, no matter their circumstance.”

I just say this, because I hope the number of upfront racists in this country is declining, but I think the number of the second kind is increasing.

I think that people have a hard time placing themselves in someone else’s shoes. If people were more empathic about their worldview, everyone would get along a lot better IMHO.
This cannot be done easily, but if you can at least do it partially, we go a long way. To some extent, if you want the same two views out of two people, the people must come from similar backgrounds.

For instance, the OJ trial. It is nearly clear to most white people (and most other people too, I would assume) that OJ killed his ex-wife and Ron Goldman. But, I try to see it from the other end, and to justify “reasonable doubt.”
-The LAPD was shown to be a partially (upfront) racist organization, with a few bad seeds. In the time since the trial, even more instances have been shown of this.
-The LA crime lab has been shown to be contaminated before.
-There was 1.5 ml of OJ’s blood unaccounted for.
-It is fairly easy to contaminate a PCR for the DNA tests (I do them every day).
-It is not beyond supposition that the missing 1.5 ml of blood could have been contaminating (either willfully or by neglect) all blood samples.

Now back to topic

The real social goals of our society is to ensure that people have a chance to climb the social ladder. Since the inception of this country, immigrants have started on the bottom and worked their way to the top. African-Americans IMHO cannot be grouped with these people. There was a governmental system of bias in place against these people for 200 years, and 40 years of trying is not going to erase that. Again, I am stereotyping, but many African Americans have no concept of climbing a social ladder because they were kept in submission and servitude for so long. In order not to create a permanent underclass, I believe that we must not only give them a social ladder to climb, but also (and unlike immigrants) help them start to climb.

11

OK, are you actively seeking to be called a racist? I don’t understand what your objective is. Is this an attempt to be labelled a racist so that you can get indignant about it and attempt to defend yourself? What?

Alright, so opinions on the subject differ.

Now that all depends on how you present these arguments. I must say though, personally I find turn-ons about the opposite sex much more intuitive to discuss then turn-offs. If something does not turn me on it tends not to draw my attention and thus not become a topic of discussion… but that’s just me.

Are there specific laws that address only blacks in america?

I find being a racist usually gets a person called a racist.

If it’s a problem for you then perhaps you are a racist. Knock it off - problem solved.

12

It’s not enough for us to try to convince you that your conclusions about another race are invalid. It’s up to you to educate yourself–perhaps in GQ, perhaps through your own extra-SDMB efforts–regarding the scientific fact that cultural practices are not tied into a people’s race. (Stephen J. Gould’s The Mismeasure of Man is a good starting point; if you’re genuinely curious about this issue, I think you’ll find it fascinating and enlightening) Once you’ve come to understand that fully, you’ll be more open to considering other factors for the behavior you find objectionable.

Meanwhile, a couple things to consider:[ul][li]Most people in this country have obstacles [sub]this high[/sub] to overcome as they try to make a success of themselves. Those same people have made it necessary that a small segment of our society has obstacles [sup]this high[/sup] to overcome along the same journey. Then if they finish a bit behind the pack, we blame their genetics.[/li]Because of these cultural obstacles, and probably countless other factors, there’s an inner-city culture in which a steady welfare check may be the highest realistically achievable goal that a young girl is aware of. Again, I don’t see how blaming her genetics makes any progress at all toward really addressing this problem. (This is not a plea for bottomless welfare; personally I hope we can find a better alternative to the welfare check. But to sabotage someone’s ability to feed themselves and then denigrate them for accepting free food doesn’t seem particularly helpful to me.)[/ul]I’m not offering any solutions, and I’m not pointing any unequivocal fingers. I’m just suggesting to VIleOrb that the issue is more complicated than his simple conclusions acknowledge, and that if he’s really open to be educated about it, he should consider digging a little deeper.

13

When I was in high school I knew many white kids who would “spange” (a word that derives from the contraction of the phrase “Spare change?”) downtown. While some were from working class or welfare familes most came from homes that were at the very least comfortably middle class. None really needed to beg for money, with the exception of a few kids who had run away or been thrown out of their homes. I think the most common situation was one in which kids would go downtown, spend all the money they brought with them, then “spange” enough to buy a snack or pay for bus fare home.

For what it’s worth, I never saw black teenagers doing this.

14

Take a random sampling of young urban black children, raise them with discipline and love, and send them to medical school and you will end up with Doctors.

Take a random sampling of suburban white children, and send them into the inner city, and you will end up with panhandlers.

You can only impart onto your children that which you know.

There’s an excellent novel by Richard Price called Clockers about a teenage black boy named Strike. Strike is an entrepeneur. He is a self-starter. He owns his own company and has employees who he manages. He keeps records, understands supply and demand, knows more about marketing than most MBAs, works 12 hours a day after school, and even has an ulcer. Strike is a drug-dealer. It’s the highest vocation available to him.

It’s fiction but meticulously researched.

15

When I was lving in New Orleans, there were gothed-out gutterpunks hanging out in the French Quarter begging change off the tourists, and every single gutterpunk was white.

I have seen plenty of black guys and white guys begging in the streets here in DC and around the country. Does that have anything to do with race? No. We are all the same race. African Americans have as lot of melanin in their skins and white folks have less, but we are just different ends of a sliding scale.

Are there deep problems in the black ghettos in our large cities? Absolutely. There are also similar problems among impoverished white areas in the rural south and midwest.

Our economic divide in the US has a lot to do with class and
little to do with race. Keeping us divided by such petty classifications as race and religion blind us to our economic exploitation by our corporate masters.

(Oldscratch, this does NOT mean I’m a socialist. I’m still a conservative, but I’m also not blind to what’s going on in America.)

16

VileOrb Not that I want to reccommend talkshows as a credible cite, but Ive seen both the situations you describe both on Jenny Jones & Sally (sorry folks sometimes I have entirely too much free time on my hands)the only differnce between those and yours is that the participants were white.

What’s it mean? Oh I don’t know, maybe that you’ll find reprehensible behavior no matter where you look or what race the people happen to be.

Does saying certain things make people a racist? It really depends on how much of an informed statement it is.

17

First off. I am a whiner. I admit it. This seems to be a nice place to whine because no one has to listen if they don’t want to.

I agree that many of the problems I am whining about are non race specific. My question or subject for debate is whether an opinion that we need to teach people that there are better options than planning to go on welfare makes me racist. (given that in the area that I am familiar with it is blacks who do this)

I believe that we need to work very hard toward improving our school system starting with the elementary schools. I see many parents who are barely able to care for themselves, much less their children. It so happens that in Bmore a large number of these are black. There IS a lot of white on black racism in Bmore and this IS a significant obstacle for poor blacks to overcome. I would like to see action taken against those who abuse the system that is trying to help the poor blacks. I would like to see these abuses stopped. Some of the methods I advocate for achieving this involve making the rules more strict. It is possible that I am making some mistakes because I cannot fully appreciate the circumstances of being a poor black. If I am making such a mistake, is it because I am racist?

So, far most of the cites of middle class whites who are panhandling are youth. Any cites of middle aged middle class whites doing this? Elderly? Just curious, I wouldn’t be surprised to hear it?

goboy - I have no problems with panhandlers who truely need the money, white, black, or purple. I don’t give them anything any more because I decided that good charities are better at making sure the money is used efficiently. I could be wrong here but that is another debate. I do have problems with panhandlers who have plenty of money to live and use panhandling as a way to pick up some extra spending money.

The comments I mentioned don’t always resulted in accusation of racism. Just frequently. For instance, recently I talked about the kids who think that the country is over 50% black, I followed with a statement that if I believed that I would be pretty angry that most of our leaders are white. I then commented that it would be easy to think this way if my exposure to america was limited to Bmore and Network television. Immediately two black who were listening thought I was trying to say that blacks shouldn’t be given so many jobs in the entertainment industry and that more whites whould be on sports teams. Hunh? I was trying to see things from the viewpoint of the inner city blacks. I was trying to advocate giving them more exposure to world. I was trying to suggest that we give them access to cable tv so that they can watch the History channel and the Discovery channel. I was trying to suggest that we teach them from an early age about their world.

Here is an issue which, I think, is really treading on thin ice. I am not firm in this viewpoint, I am still thinking about it. I would like to take any money targeted toward improving high schools and give it to the elementary schools. I think that it takes a larger amount of resources than we have to get through to people once they’ve reached this age. I propose leaving the staus quo in the high schools and trying to improve the elementary schools. Then, when the kids that have gone through the elementary schools reach high school, the high schools’ task will be made easier. This means giving up on a large segment of a generation of children. I am not happy about that, but am extremely pessimistic about our ability to help them. The ones that get help from their parents will be fine anyway. There will be a few that would be able to improve their lot because of the proposed improvements, this is the point that makes me doubt my idea. The balance to this is the idea that I believe it is easier to reach the younger children and the increased resources directed toward the elementary schools could be used far more effectively. Another issue that makes me doubt this idea is that we already spend more money than seems necessary on all schools and perhaps we need to alter the system radically before any improvements are going to take place on any level.

Ok, I seem to be throwing out a bunch of ideas any one of which could be a thread in themselves. This thread, I had hoped, would be more about what I am socially allowed to say about these issues. I tend to whine a bit. I tend to spout my ideas as The Right Thing sometimes instead of as a proposed idea up for debate. I am aware that this causes some negative reactions and I am trying to change.

Another thing I was hoping to get out of this thread - How much inherent value is there in a culture? Many people seem to be determined to preserve their culture. I am all in favor of changing my culture in many ways. What then of those who are dispairing because their culture is vanishing? The value of a diverse culture is that individuals can see many different ways of life and choose the one that suits them. If a culture cannot survive in the modern world, I say take any good aspects you see into your own life and don’t worry about it. Is there a word for not respecting a culture? Maybe I am culture supremist (or at least I think that the many dominant cultures are better cultures than SOME of the ones that are subordinate.). I don’t think that a culture, just because it exists, should be preserved.

18

That is not racist, it’s “Panhandlerist”.

This is a clear cut showing of “Welfareism”.

That is “Ageism”, not racism.

This is not racism, it’s clearly “buildingism”.

So if they want equality in the love department, I say we should stop the sexism in the love department too. I wonder how straight guys would react to that. LOVE IS LOVE, LUST IS LUST, IT’S NOT A JOB OR SOMETHING REALLY IMPORTANT.

I’ve had my friend call me racist because I said I wasn’t attracted sexually to black skin. What if someone has a thing for eyes, is that “eyeism”. Someone prefers blonde hair over burnette, so therefore they are a “hairist”

That is called stating results. In fact, by their standards, everyone who answered that question is a racist.

Do you mean “…black to white racism resluts in increased white to black racism…”?

It looks like it, so I’ll use that, and that is a biconditional statement, the coverse:…

“White to black racism results in increased black to white rasism.”

…is also true, and since going one way was racist, then the converse is racist also. I don’t think your friends would agree with that but it’s the truth.

Well alot of laws affect blacks, the marriage tax cuts will affect blacks, so it must be racist. A tax hike would affect blacks, so it must be racist. That’s what happens when you get into politics I guess.

It’s really annoying when people forget that racism is “The discrimination, putting down of, or limitations, on someone because of their skin color.”

Racism isn’t always “Saying something about blacks.”

19

**

Actually MPSIMS or The Pit are good places to whine. Great Debates is not. This is a place for…surprise surprise…debating shit.

**

Then stop doing it. [fuck. I had a really good rant/insult here but then realised I’m not in the pit, and had to delete it]

**

No it is not. The way you state it might make you racist.

You then posted a lot of stuff. Some of it has merit, some of it doesn’t. But your whining turns me off so I’m not going to comment on it.

20

VileOrb, I hope you are sincere in your attempts to seek out, for lack of a better word, “enlightenment” on this subject. I must tell you, however, that reading this thread it’s my impression that you’re not. It’s my impression that wanted to rant/whine about issues you feel are race-related, but you lacked the courage to simply go to the Pit and rant such a rant, so you came here to dress it up as a debate.

I hope I’m wrong. If I am, I sincerely wish you luck as you increase your efforts (which of course is the first step) to educate yourself further on these issues. If I’m right, I hope you’ll start this over in the Pit and quit hiding your true–yes, racist–feelings behind a debate you’re not that interested in engaging in.