Expressing disapproval of aspect of someone else's culture

Great Debates
21

Ok, unfortunately my whining/ranting, which was really just intended as examples what I was asking about, got more attention than what I really wanted to talk about. I’d edit it out if I could.

Well, let me try one more time. I want debate about whether a culture has inherent value like a person has inherent value, so that destruction of a culture could be compared to murder.

Also, I want to debate whether someone who cannot possibly know what it’s like to be underpriviledged could have valid opinions about what should be done to alleviate the problems of underpriviledged people. And, whether attempting to promote those possibly invalid opinions could be called an immoral act.

22

/hijack

I remember on Discovery channel web site there was a test some university was doing. It would show white faces, black faces, bad words(terrible, death, kill), and good words(love, happiness, gentle). You had to press G for all good words and faces, and B for all bad words. Then it would switch and you had to pretend the faces were bad. 60% of the time I would put black faces on bad and white faces on good when I wasn’t supposed to. It said that a slight racial bias for your own race was normal.

/hijack

23

By what mechanism do you suppose that a culture can be destroyed, except by the destruction of the individuals who make it up? A culture’s sort of an emergent phenomenon, arising from the contributions and shared experience of those individuals. And if you’re not a participant in the culture, you don’t really have any say as to whether it’s destroyed, so isn’t it kind of irrelevant? (Please don’t think I’m being curt; I’m just asking if you’d expand, or refine, your position.)

I think where you’re running into a problem is in the area of agency, and to whom you ascribe it. You seem, in the opinions you’ve expressed so far, to be taking a bit of a paternalistic attitude. As in, “How can we help these people?” That’s not really a constructive way to go about it. You know how FriendofGod’s getting a reaming from some posters a few threads over because they feel that he sees them not as people, but conversion fodder, and it really rubs them the wrong way? Same thing. It is a terrible, shameful state of affairs that we can still have oppressed classes in the U.S., but it doesn’t show a whole lot of respect for people to view them as some sort of project. We all want to help others, sure, but when you start offering unsolicited advice to people who belong to a class that hasn’t had the best of experiences with the class to which you belong, can you see how they might look at you through slightly narrowed eyes?

24

Hey, lots of people are complaining that their culture is slowly disappearing. Native Americans, Hmong, Afrikaans, etc… A culture can be eliminated by having each generation of children learn less of it, and more of a different culture.

I want to intentionally put effort into teaching new things to the children of cultures that I think are mostly self destructive or parasitic. I agree that it shouldn’t be just my opinion that decides which culture needs to go and which should be encouraged.

What I would like to know is whether people here think that NO culture should ever be eliminated. Is the disappearance of a culture always a great tragedy? I say no. Anyone else?

Also, I am still curious as to whether I can possibly have a valid opinion about how to deal with a group that I cannot possibly fully understand. Can my opinions about how to help the poor be valid when I cannot fully understand the position that the poor are in?

25

Cultures are subject to the ambient morality and how they emrace it. It is not for you or I or anyone else to decide which culture stays and which one goes. All cultural identities change over time and often become so integrated into the prevailing majority that they become indistiguishable. But not without having an impact on that majority. The amount of impact varies. Thus all cultures change and evolve over time. Cultures are not static and everlasting. Like many animal species, cultures are selected in and out of existance by the forces of environment and neighbouring cultural influences.

To assume the role of cultural and social engineer by actively selecting and weeding various cultures is wrong on many levels and ultimately doomed to fail.

26

VileOrb, I see a lot of people who insist that they aren’t racist, but only mention the a single group of people in their statements.

If you’re surprised that a large number of poor, black, inner city girls would like to get pregnant and go on welfare, I suggest you go our to a poor, white, rural high school and ask the same question. You might be surprised at the results.

As for being called a racist when you point out that someone who watches TV or spots might assume there’s a higher minority population than really exists, why did you choose that example? Would it have been as easy to suggest the students watch hockey, where blacks are under-represented, to show them that what they see themselves is only a small fragment of reality?

Maybe your problem isn’t racism, but a certain lack of sensitivity. Feeling the right thing is one thing, saying it the right way is something else, and some people can’t judge what’s in your heart when they hear what comes out of your mouth.

27

I don’t know if this fits in EXACTLY, but I remember getting into a HUGE debate (read: fight) with someone on a message board I have since been kicked off of (for reasons NOT related to the following incident).
There was a debate on how the Catholic church is so narrow-minded and how stupid it was for Catholics to be so upset about a portrait of Mary covered in elephant shit. I took the viewpoint that perhaps people wouldn’t say it was stupid to be upset if it were a portrait of say, oh, Martin Luther King, or maybe Muhammed. (Just pulling names out of the air). And this one super harpy JUMPS on me about how in Islam it’s wrong even to make portraits of Muhammed, how bigotted I was,etc etc.
And then I said, see, then why is it okay to make fun of Catholics. And then she went on about how evil and narrow-minded the Pope is, and I brought up the Taliban.
And she went off on me about how I know NOTHING about Islam, and how the Koran is interpreted wrong, and all that. And I said, exactly, and that’s the problem with Catholicism. And she’s like, no no no, Catholics are bad, etc etc.
And finally, I was about ready to call it quits, when someone said we needed to calm down. So I jokingly said, “Which one?” LOL
And then she came back on, and was like Oh, you think you’re so funny and all her cronies came on and everything…
Blah blah blah…
Finally I just said FINE! I"m wrong and I’m a bigot, happy?

sigh
I guess the point I’m trying to make is, in all cultures the are ALWAYS bad points (the Taliban in Islam, and the whole thing about how it’s okay to beat one’s wife-NOT that all Muslims are like that, but SOME). I compared it to the fact that SOME Catholics are narrow-minded abortion clinic bombers but not ALL. And they said it didn’t compare.
So frankly, there ARE some points in SOME cultures that are abominable…like the Aztec ritual killings (pulling the still beating heart out of a slave, I believe), or the suttee(sp?) in India (wife climbs on the funeral pyre with dead husband), the footbinding in China, some religions that insist on female circumcision, etc.

So I dont’ think it’s a being a bigot to say there are some cultural things that are well, sucky.

That said, I don’t think necessarily that all poorblacks/poorwhites think it’s stupid to try an get an education or work. It’s probably more of an insecurity (I’m not smart enough to try, so I’m going to just fail). It’s a classic case of sour grapes.

Whew!

28

Ok, we’re getting a little bit of actual conversation here. I like it.

The first time I said publicly, “Hey, I think we ought to put some thought into how we help the underpriviledged. Obviously the way we’re doing it now is not working.” I was immediately attacked as a racist by three black college students who were sitting nearby. I was not thinking specifically of blacks when I said it and my reaction was to just shut up and not even try to argue. I do not see where that statement sounded offensive or racist. The context was in a discussion of whether or not to re-elect Kurt Schmoke (a black man) as mayor and if given the chance I would have continued to say that I supported Scmhoke and voted for him each time I was given a chance. I was somewhat critcal of Schmoke’s lenience on people within his staff who had been convicted of crimes (mostly slum-lord stuff) while holding office. Because a large percentage of the poor in Bmore are black it seems that any comment made by a non black about how to deal with poverty is immediately jumped on as racist.

I just deleted several paragraphs. I am doing to much talking about me. I want to hear what others have to say. Or let this thread fade away. I’ll ask some questions and see if that gets better results. Has no one else ever been accused of racism for an opinion expressed on poverty? Has no one else thought it would be nice to teach children that a two parent home is a good thing? Has no one else ever had a thought about how stop throwing good money at bad and try a different aproach to the problems of the inner city? Isn’t it worth risking the label of racist to make the effort?

29

Like many have already stated in this thread - it all depends on your delivery. If you are critical without offering solutions then you will be labeled a reactionary at best and a racist/chauvenist/elitist at worst.

Face it, some people cannot see the forest for the trees and will never agree with your point of view. Most reasonable people will recognize a constructive argument made by another reasonable person.

So if you are constantly being met with challenges of racism then perhaps you are talking to the wrong people or you are being critical without offering logical and unbiased solutions. It’s up to you to realize which.

30

Unfortunately, occasionally the definition of ‘racist’ is ‘a white person who is winning an argument with a liberal’.

Last time it happened to me was when I was called racist for 1) saying that welfare reform disproportionately affected blacks, and 2) supporting welfare reform, since it would disproportionately affect blacks.

Sigh.

31

> When I support welfare reform, again I get called racist.

Since most people on welfare are white, I don’t understand that. It seems almost racist to assume “welfare” means “black person”.

> When I support enforced curfews for minors, I get called racist. When I criticize the parents who screamed when their children were given classes in estheticly unpleasing temporary buildings while an addition was being built on the school, I get called racist.

Those criticisms don’t make any sense to me, either. You were talking about curfews for anyone below a certain age, I assume?

> When I say that black women’s hair turns me off sexually, I get called racist.

That just sounds like a personal preference to me, although I wouldn’t word it the way you did. I don’t think we have much control over what turns us on, so under that definition just about all of us are racist or sexist, since most of us have preferences as to what we’re attracted to in a partner.

I think “racist” is another of those words that’s getting used so much that it’s losing its meaning.

32

Yes, I think so too.

My head is spinning from all the ideas on this thread, but yes, I do believe that the word “racist” is often used in a knee-jerk way.

I do wonder if you are inadvertantly (sp?) phrasing your comments or questions in a way that are giving people a reason to get ticked. Though - I do not doubt for a minute that some people will jump up to label anything or anyone that pisses them off as “racist”. For instance, if a person didn’t win a contest or competition? It was racism! After all, it’s impossible to believe that maybe someone was better or more qualified! We all know that there are people who will do that. “Racism” can be an overused term, alas. Same for “sexism”, or other terms. Some people will abuse these loaded words.

As far as “culture”, I think different cities, different parts of the country are different, “culture”-wise. (I sure as hell have experienced that first-hand, having been born and raised in L.A., and then having been transplanted to the Midwest. Yikes!) Some areas have high percentages of blacks who panhandle, even though they don’t need the money. Other areas, it’ll be white teens. So, I guess there are no absolutes with this sort of thing.

As far as blacks go, my brother-in-law is black (my family is white.) I don’t know all the exhausitive details about his background, but a few details: he comes from a reasonably successful family in Sacramento. Never experienced an overwhelming amount of overt racism in his youth. (Maybe that was a “Sacramento” thing, maybe it was his neighborhood, I don’t know.) Went to a nice college, Cal State Pomona, where he met my sister. They have had a nice, stable marriage for almost 20 years, 2 great kids. He has a great job working as an engineer, and has always had a successful professional life.

Yet, apparently, my brother-in-law is considered a “traitor” by some black people he has encountered. And not just for marrying a white woman, but for his entire lifestyle. For being successful, educated, for having a stable marriage (one steady girlfriend in his lifetime, my sister - who became his wife.) For this he is a “traitor”. I am not making this up. From my understanding, this is what he has experienced. Maybe I got some of the details wrong, though. All I know is that I don’t get it, and obviously I don’t believe that all black people think my brother-in-law is an outsider, but apparently some do.

I don’t quite know what my point was in this, other than to point out that:

  1. There are black people are like my brother-in-law - NOT panhandlers, NOT welfare recipients. Black people are like everyone else - they come in many variations, good, bad, interesting, dull, weird, eccentric, etc. Yadda yadda yadda.

  2. There (apparently) exists some sort of cultural pressure that has (on occasion) attempted to make brother-in-law feel like he is somehow turning his back on his race by being educated, having a good job and a good marriage.

Am I “racist” for even mentioning this? Yikes! Has it come to that? I am just repeating what I have heard. My brother-in-law is very proud of his race, and he and my sister are raising their kids to be proud of their heritage.

Well, I got off on a tangent there…I’ll shut up now.

33

y-babe: *2) There (apparently) exists some sort of cultural pressure that has (on occasion) attempted to make brother-in-law feel like he is somehow turning his back on his race by being educated, having a good job and a good marriage.

Am I “racist” for even mentioning this?*

Not necessarily. The basic problem, I think, is in the ambiguity of the terms “culture” and “cultural”. There’s a very fine line between saying “there are aspects of this culture that I think are counterproductive” and saying “this is a bad culture”. And when you focus too much on the counterproductive aspects, then it is easy for others to think that you are trashing the whole culture.

For instance, you mention (quite accurately, I’m sure) that your brother-in-law has experienced some pressure within African-American culture in opposition to his good education, career, marriage, etc. You don’t mention that, of course, he’s also experienced a lot of pressure within the same culture in favor of those very things, for example, from his parents and teachers. Now I’m sure that your omission doesn’t mean that you’re really convinced that American black culture as a whole is determinedly anti-social and anti-family and your brother-in-law is a rare shining exception to that—in fact, you explicitly disclaimed that attitude. But if in talking about “black cultural pressures” you tended to focus only on the negatives, you’d be likely to make other people think that you thought it was all negative.

And maybe that’s the source of the problem that VileOrb is having, as QuickSilver said very well: if your attention to this culture is totally or mostly focused on its negative aspects, you can easily give the impression that really, you just like criticizing black people. And yes, that is racist. So if you don’t want to be misjudged, especially on such a touchy topic, you do have to think carefully about what you’re saying.

Some people, of course, are just tremendously over-defensive and will fly right off the handle with hurtful accusations at the slightest provocation. But I’ve found that they usually calm down and see reason very readily if I make the effort to be sympathetic to their viewpoint and stress our common ground, instead of getting all hurt and defensive right back at them. Remember, most people who call you a racist, even if they’re totally misguided and out of line about it, are not saying it out of a wanton desire to hurt your feelings: they’re saying it because they feel that you hurt theirs. And that can usually be easily defused, if you resist the temptation to make it a victimization competition.

34

Someone called you a “racist”, “sexist” or “homophobe” and you know that they are incorrect in their statement, just simply ask them this.

For the example, we will use the statement “I support welfare reform.”

A: I support welfare reform.
B: RACIST!!!
A: What aspect of my statement, “I support welfare reform” is racist?
B: (Poor excuse about how it affects blacks)
A: There are black people who can succeed in the world, and there are some who faulter, same with whites, asians, or whatever. Saying that blacks are the only ones in the U.S. who need welfare is racist yourself.