Facts cannot compete with lies

[kaltkalt]

I’ve concluded that facts, the objective truth, has no chance against lies. “The truth is on my side so I will ultimately be victorious” is an antiquated idea and I’m not sure if it ever had any merit, but in the age of the internet and Fox News and cutthroat politics, it most certainly has no place in this day and age. A good lie will always trump a good fact. The modern (post-Clinton and particularly post-Obama) Republican party is based entirely on this notion (with Fox News being the lie machine). From blatant lies to half-truths to facts taken out of context, if they make people feel good and reinforce their worldview, facts - no matter how verifiable and proven true - can’t compete.

Recently I’ve started hearing conservatives attacking Snopes.com, which has been the most trustworthy website since the early days of the internet. Snopes.com never has a bias, but with the republicans spewing mass email lies, it means Snopes is going to be debunking those lies, and that pisses them off. So now “Snopes is run by liberals and has a liberal agenda and is a liberal lie machine” is the position of the right-wingers. This really makes me sad.

But what makes me even more sad is our freedoms and our way of life is going to be destroyed unless liberals learn to lie the way conservatives do. Thinking you’ll win in the end because the truth is on your side is a guaranteed way to lose. Unless liberals learn to lie like conservatives and get their own Fox News (sorry, MSNBC doesn’t come close), life as we know it will end. And by “liberal” I really mean moderate conservative - Obama is so far to the right of Barry “Mr. Conservative” Goldwater it’s scary… the Democrats are what used to be the GOP, and the GOP has become a christofascist, racist, anti-science, xenophobic fiscally irresponsible cult that proudly and admittedly opposes anything “fact based” - their words. If Barry Goldwater were trying to run for president today, the Republicans would attack the crap out of him calling him a socialist pig, and the Democrats wouldn’t touch him either as he’d be way too liberal to be elected… he’d be grouped with the likes of John Kucinich. Goldwater actually openly stated he wanted to keep religion out of government! Can you believe that! That godless heathen. Reagan also would be too liberal… he raised taxes multiple times. But I digress.

This website is about facts, answering questions, getting to the truth. I’m afraid that concept is already outdated, especially politically. A good lie makes you feel good, justifies your existence, reinforces your worldview, and makes you say “I knew it!” A fact usually doesn’t, and quite the contrary - facts can often make you say “I didn’t know that” or “looks like I was wrong” - something most Americans are not willing to think, let alone admit.

If we’re really smart, we need to learn how to lie better. It shouldn’t be above us. These days, one good lie is worth a thousand verifiable, unqualified, indisputable facts. It’s sad but true (and that’s how you known it’s true - if it were a lie, it would likely make you feel good).

[Thudlow_Boink]

There are, and always will be, at least some people who value the truth. If you lie to me even once, I will learn to discount what you say and go off looking for someone else I can trust.

[kaltkalt]

But most people, it seems, don’t care if they’re being lied to as long as they like the sound of the lies. They’ll never admit “I like being lied to” but they clearly do. When confronted with the (contrary) truth they ignore it and even get offended by it.

[foolsguinea]

Dennis Kucinich != John Kasich.

We need to remind people that “bias-free” does not mean “agrees with you half the time.” Balance is itself a kind of bias.

[Bloodless_Turnip]

When I’m being told that (in essence) only conservatives lie, well…I know I’m being lied to.

But what makes me even more sad is our freedoms and our way of life is going to be destroyed unless liberals learn to lie the way conservatives do.

[Lumpy]

I wouldn’t be quite so dispairing as the OP. While it is true that a lie can go around the world while truth is still putting its pants on, truth is still relevent. The 'Pubs tried to “make their own reality” in Iraq and we saw how well that worked. Lying to others might be highly useful but lying to yourself is ultimately fatal.

[Terr]

People, in general, don’t like to be lied to in everyday personal interactions.

People, in general, enjoy being lied to by politicians (at least the ones that they think are “on their side”).

[kaltkalt]

Oh liberals lie, but not very well - nowhere nearly as well as conservatives - and not as often as conservatives. When liberals lie, it’s usually half-truths and nothing more. A half-truth is technically a lie, but it’s very easy to convince yourself that it’s not - you’re saying something that’s technically true and leaving out the other fact that, when taken together, makes it false/misleading. Liberals don’t do the blatant sort of lying you see on Fox News and conservative websites. I wish they did, for the sake of humanity and the future of America.

Liberals have a holier than thou attitude and they are above lying. Conservatives are cutthroat and will lie all day long if it means gaining/keeping power. Plus the religious conservatives “Know” (with the capital K) that they’re doing “god’s work” and thus any lying, cheating, stealing, etc is justified. Religious people can justify any immoral act in the name of furthering god’s plan (which always profits and empowers themselves).

Also, conservatives are loyal to people not principles, while liberals are loyal to principles and not people - this makes it much easier for conservatives to spout lies than for liberals (lies about anything other than the people they’re loyal to, anyway).

[drewtwo99]

kaltkalt, what liberals are even left in America to do any lying? As you said very correctly, the Democratic party is extremely conservative and the GOP is like a laughably even more conservative version. The Democrat’s greatest lie is that they have convinced some people that they are progressive/liberal at all.

[thelabdude]

The question is do we have many true liberals left, people that want to use the power of the state to protect the little guy? Or just a bunch of crooked Democrats saying anything to get elected in order to line their pockets? Should liberals be faulted for ‘‘I never had sex with that woman.’’? Do any of you remember the poll that showed a majority of people in the country admired Bill Clinton for his ability to lie out of things? ACORN is as honest as the day is long, right?

I checked, we don’t have a humor forum here. I was going suggest to the moderators this thread was move to it.

[Bloodless_Turnip]

How about, to start, defining conservative and liberal okay?

[John_Mace]

If you’re convinced that your political views cannot be implemented except by lying, I would propose that those views should not be implemented in a democracy. Why not just cut to the chase and propose getting rid of that pesky democracy thing altogether?

[Jackmannii]

But what makes me even more sad is our freedoms and our way of life is going to be destroyed unless liberals learn to lie the way conservatives do.

Don’t sell liberals short - they’ve done very well up till now and continue to shine.

The notion that the Left is too sweet, honest and angelic for its own good and must learn to play hardball like the Right is in itself a spectacular falsehood.

It’s true that just countering a well-sold, emotionally driven lie with sober facts is a strategy for failure. The happy medium involves marshalling facts with the same socko presentation as the liars (obviously easier said than done).

[guizot]

@John_Mace

If you’re convinced that your political views cannot be implemented except by lying, I would propose that those views should not be implemented in a democracy. Why not just cut to the chase and propose getting rid of that pesky democracy thing altogether?

Posing such a (rhetorical) question seems to be missing the whole point of the OP.

[John_Mace]

@guizot

Posing such a (rhetorical) question seems to be missing the whole point of the OP.

It wasn’t a rhetorical question.

[TriPolar]

@TriPolar in another thread

Unfailingly, human beings prefer a comfortable lie to distressful truth.

kaltkalt, if you think liberals haven’t been lying all along, then you are just human. I contend my prior statement is not an exagerration, and no human is immune. Luckily there are just enough people who are never comfortable with a lie or distressed by the truth for society to limp along for a while.

[GIGObuster]

@Jackmannii

Don’t sell liberals short - they’ve done very well up till now and continue to shine.

The notion that the Left is too sweet, honest and angelic for its own good and must learn to play hardball like the Right is in itself a spectacular falsehood.

It’s true that just countering a well-sold, emotionally driven lie with sober facts is a strategy for failure. The happy medium involves marshalling facts with the same socko presentation as the liars (obviously easier said than done).

It is more clear to me that Politifact had to bend like a pretzel to be fair to the Republicans, unfortunately many did notice that bending to get the democrats to reach the level of the Republican liars.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14590291&postcount=19

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14593744&postcount=51

The problem has been that when even science shows the big lies the Republicans are continuing to push, it is really hard to make the proposition that both sides are lying just the same.

“End Medicare?” How Phony Bipartisanship Created a Fact Checking Disaster

Whether Medicare would actually “end” under the GOP plan is thus a matter of definition. If you think changing a program “dramatically” and “profoundly” but keeping the same name means the program continues, you certainly have an argument you can make. But if someone else thinks otherwise? Your disagreement will largely be about semantics. And you can then go and have a deep “Ship of Theseus” debate about when it is that making changes to a thing means that the thing ceases to be the thing…but I really don’t think this is what we rely on our political fact-checkers for.

Honestly, I can see giving Democrats a few wrist-slaps over this, of the minor One-to-Two Pinocchio variety. And if that is all that had happened, there may have been some scattered griping, but it would have ended there.

But lie of the year? You have got to be joking.

PolitiFact’s move is especially remarkable when you survey some of the clear falsehoods that were almost lie of the year:

The economic stimulus created “zero jobs.” — The National Republican Senatorial Committee and other Republicans

Scientists are “questioning the original idea that man-made global warming is what is causing the climate to change. … (It is) more and more being put into question.” — Republican presidential candidate Rick Perry

President Obama “went around the world and apologized for America.” — Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney

The vaccine to prevent HPV can cause mental retardation. — Republican presidential candidate Michele Bachmann

Notably, all of these big lies were uttered by Republicans. In fact, with the exception of the Bachmann example, they were uttered repeatedly by Republicans (albeit in varying forms).

But PolitiFact’s last two “lie of the year” awards (“death panels” in 2009 and “government takeover of health care” in 2010) also went to Republicans. So tagging the GOP yet again with this most devastating of charges wouldn’t appear very “balanced.”

Here again, then, we see the Achilles heel of the bipartisan fact-checkers. Whenever they must take a step that would lend clear support to the idea that the left and right aren’t equal with respect to reality, they tend to falter.

-Chris Mooney, senior correspondent for The American Prospect, and author of the bestselling book The Republican War on Science

[guizot]

@John_Mace

It wasn’t a rhetorical question.

Then, what do you prefer over democracy?

[Lemur866]

John Mace doesn’t prefer some other political system to democracy. He is saying that it seems like** kaltkalt** does.

[guizot]

@Lemur866

John Mace doesn’t prefer some other political system to democracy. He is saying that it seems like** kaltkalt** does.

Then he’s missing the point. The satirical target of the OP is the lying, not the democracy. Or rather, the target is the people of a nation who think they can have both.