Factual claims by Ta-Nehisi Coates about the Palestinian territories

Factual Questions
1

Coates recently wrote a book about his visit to the West Bank (among other things), and made a number of factual claims in it, arguing that Israeli treatment of Palestinians is akin to the old Jim Crow South or Apartheid. In particular, he said the following:

There were streets that we would encounter where we were allowed as non-Palestinians to walk and Palestinians were not allowed to walk. …

I was on my way to support a vendor, and a guard came out and he stopped me and he said, “What’s your religion, bro?” And I said, “I don’t really have a religion. I’m not a particularly religious person.” He said, “Come on, don’t play. What is your religion? … What is your parents’ religion? … What was your grandmother’s religion?” I said, “Well, my grandmother was a Christian.” And he said, “OK, you can go past.” And it was so blatant. It was so clear. … I wouldn’t have been allowed to pass [if I was Muslim]. That was clear.

Is it factually true that, in parts of the West Bank, there are streets in which Palestinians cannot pass but non Palestinians can, and this is enforced with questions about religion?

He also said:

if a Palestinian is arrested on the West Bank, they are subject to the military system of justice, whereas if a Jewish settler is arrested on the West Bank, they’re subjected to the civil system.

Is this factually accurate?

2

Last Week Tonight did an excellent (and rather disturbing) piece about the West Bank not that long ago. In short, what Coates said is consistent with what Oliver showed.

3

Yes, I know for a fact that there are streets around Hebron where armed military turned my Palestinian colleague away before letting me walk down it. My colleague took me there to show me this phenomena and the guard asked my religion.

4

Yes, if the Palestinian is arrested by Israelis, he is subject to military justice. If the Palestinians arrest a Palestinian, he is subject to Palestinian civil justice. But if the victim is Israeli, he must be turned over to the Israeli military courts.

Palestinians do not have the authority to arrest an Israeli committing a crime against a Palestinian.

5

There are 2M Palestinians living inside Israel, i.e. they are Israeli citizens, unlike those in the WB. Equal but apart best describes their situation. The identity cards show religion.

So, even if you want to dismiss that Israel is not an apartheid state, because WB and Gaza are occupied territories, Israel proper separates their citizens. Granted, the apartheid within Israel is not as oppressive as it was in SA or the U.S. south, but different levels of hell and all that.

6

When I was in West Bank, an Israeli settler had recently raped a Palestinian child. The Palestinians turned him over to the Israelis , but he was seen back in the settlement shortly thereafter. It wasn’t clear if he was on parole, or never charged, but the Palestinians were not getting any answers as to what was being done.

7

In what way? They can choose to live in predominantly Muslim communities, but they can also live in predominantly Jewish communities. They use the same businesses, Jewish people freely shop in Arab towns and vice versa, everyone serves on the same Parliament… How is it “apart”?

What do you mean by “Palestinians”? Do you think this is about ethnicity? Or would an Israeli Arab be treated like any other Israeli, and this is about residency in an occupied territory vs citizenship in a country rather than about religion?

8

The BBC had a post a few months ago where one of their reporters went to talk to some Palestinian farmers. They went to see where the settlers had dug up the road so the farmer could not get to his fields. While they were talking and looking, a drone appeared and hovered near them. Then some men with weapons appeared - not clear if they were IDF of simply settlers dressed in military fatigues. They told them to go back to the village.

The article mentioned that under Israeli occupation law, “abandoned” land was open to be taken and claimed by Israelis. So by blocking the farmer, if he did not continue to farm his land it would be considered “abandoned”. Similarly, Palestinians who fled in 1948 or 1967 were not allowed back into occupied Palestine, and were not allowed to sell their land to anyone (only that it could be inherited by their children - if they lived in the West Bank.) The Israelis apparently do not accept old Ottoman tax records etc. as evidence of land ownership.

Then there’s the issue of illegal buildings. Apparently it’s almost impossible for an Arab to get a building permit for the area around Jerusalem. If they build or expand a building anyway, the soldiers will come and tear it down.

You can peruse Israel and Palestine on Google Earth, but apparently there;s a special (American) law that limits the resolution that Google is allowed to show,

Or read this - somewhat old I was arrested for hiring a Palestinian tour guide - +972 Magazine - about how the police intercepted a group with a Palestinian tour guide (with all the papers, legally entitled to be there working) arrested him anyway, and then when they released him, “lost” his papers so he would have to re-apply for them which would take months.

There’s apparently a street in Hebron where Palestinians are not allowed to use their front door, the street leads to the Jewish entrance to the “Tomb of Abraham” shrine.

If you can find it, watch the documentary film Israelism by a Jewish American about how the IDF treats Palestinians in the West Bank.

When the IDF had to remove a Kibbutz from Gaza two decades ago, they had to use water canon to quell the Israeli occupants who refused to go. When there are confrontations in the West Bank with Palestinians, it is not unusual for the IDF to use live ammunition directly into the crowd. There have been several instances of journalists nowhere near the scene of any fighting to be shot and killed.

9

(This will probably move the thread into GD territory, but here is a factual post which is relevant:)
The prohibition on movement down certain streets works both ways.
There are roads on which Palestinians are free to travel, but Israeli citizens are prohibited from setting foot on.

Read the sign in this picture. It clearly warns, bluntly, in three languages (Arabic, Hebrew, and English):
“This road is Palestinian territory. Israelis are not allowed, and may be killed.”

10

Note, this has nothing to do with ethnicity or religions. Palestinians are people from the Palestinian territories, be they Muslim, Christian, or anything else.

Israelis are Israelis, whether they are Jewish, Muslim, or Christian.

I’m sure you can find plenty of videos of people asking one another what their religion is as a shorthand for that, but a Muslim Israeli can do anything a Jewish Israeli can.

11

Can they move into a settlement?

(I am asking sincerely, as I truly don’t know)

12

But this is a warning about possible unlawful violence, not a warning that this is the legal consequence for trespassing. Of course the lands there are dangerous all around for people who stray into the wrong area. As mentioned above, the Paestinian authorities have no jurisdiction ovr Israelis.

Thank you - he said it far better than I can.

I found the BBC article.

13

Can you marry one of them? I am not asking if you want to, I am aski9ng if it’s legally possible for you to marry a Muslim under the law of Israel?

14

Yes, lots of Israelis Jews are married to Arab Muslims.

The law of Israel doesn’t handle marriage directly at all, no matter what your religion or ethnicity is. In a system copy-pasted from the Ottoman one, that’s shared with much of the rest of former Ottoman territory, Israel lets individual religious authorities handle marriage, which Israel then recognizes.

The concept of a civil marriage doesn’t exist in Israeli law directly, just like any other state that inherited the Ottoman system; however, Israel recognizes civili marriages performed in the courts of other countries, so people who don’t want a religious marriage, or whose marriage doesn’t get approved by any religious authority, can just get a marriage certificate online from a European country or US state at which point the Israeli government fully recognizes the marriage.

That’s a load of archaic nonsense, mind you, and Israel should implement civil marriage directly; but there are political realities that make it difficult, and it doesn’t really impact anyone’s life (especially with modern Internet access).

15

So it’s a “no” then. A Jew cannot marry a Muslim in Israel. Separate but equal in other words.
This is similar to women in the U.S. having to travel out of state to get an abortion, as well as the same for whole countries where abortion is illegal. An example are abortion travels from Ireland to the U.K. From 1992 Irish law gave constitutional protection to women who engaged in such practices, while at the same time still prohibiting in Ireland.

BTW - When the Jewish/Muslim couple has kids, which school can they chose?

16

Not true.

Again, untrue.

Only if you really stretch your definitions in order to reach a predetermined conclusion.

17

What?

You, yourself, said that they have to leave Israel to get married. That the Israeli government recognizes the marriage as legal doesn’t change that.

And I’m being being a bit cautious when saying separate but equal. Human Rights Watch is less kind:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2001/12/04/israeli-schools-separate-not-equal

18

Israel, the country, doesn’t have any rules about who can get married. They just have a list of religious institutions whose marriages are recognized, as well as recognizing international marriages.

If you have two Israeli Jews who don’t approve of the Jewish Rabbinate in charge of marriage in Israel, they also have no option but to get married in another jurisdiction (though they never have to leave Israel, no idea where you got that idea).

That’s not different rules for different classes of people. It’s also not separation of church and state, but Israel doesn’t claim to have separation of church and state.

19

LOTS of people have to leave Israel to get married. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Palestinian question, or even with Muslim-Jewish relations, and there is no “discrimination” involved.

There is an entire industry of travel agents in Israel who make a good living marketing “destination weddings” to those who have to leave Israel to get married. The travel agents book your flights overseas, offer you a wedding ceremony, and arrange the marriage certificate for you, which is legally binding in Israel. This is frequently done by many, many Israelis, for many reasons. (often because they are atheists and don’t want to marry under any kind of rabbi, imam or priest, who are the only legally recognized wedding officiants within Israel. So these people use the travel agencies. It’s a crazy system that exists due to archaic laws.

But this thread is about alleged discrimination against Palestinians, an issue for which the marriage laws in Israel are not relevant.

(For a comparable example of silly archaic marriage laws: in England there is (or was till very recently) a law that all marriages have to take place inside a church.This created a business of companies that offered to rent you inflatable “bouncy church” buildings.)

20

Back to the OP, and in the spirit of Factual Questions, the question has been answered conclusively: What Coates said is indeed confirmed to be factually accurate.