"Fag" isn't insulting to gay people? (includes anime rant)

The BBQ Pit
1

I originally wasn’t going to post this (being mostly the lurking sort) but it’s been bothering me for a few days, so I figured, what the heck. I think it reads better if you imagine Carl Sagan saying “dozens and dozens.”

I made friends with a girl in high school, since we were both anime and video game fans. We spent a lot of lunches together and generally got along. After high school, I moved from that town and didn’t see her for a few years. I’d actually almost forgotten about her, but she hunted me down online and we made friends again. She vanished after a little online communication, then came back again, then vanished again…

After a few month’s absence, she returned once more, with a new Livejournal name and all. I friended her again, and we talked a little bit. But something was different.

Anime fans sometimes get a little… weird… about anime. I won’t deny that I was a rather snot-nosed brat in high school when it came to the subject, but I’ve since realized that judging other people by the cartoons they like (or don’t like) is pretty silly. She posted several anime rants on her Livejournal, one about how she couldn’t understand why anyone would type the anime title “Fullmetal Alchemist” as “Full Metal Alchemist,” comparing the mistake to typing “you” as “u.” The other rants were along a similar line, about how she hated the pretenders who said they liked her favorite Japanese pop band, or how stupid the other people in her Japanese classes were, and the like. It was an unexpected change in personality, and I didn’t like it, but I figured it was mostly harmless.

Then she posted on how she’d found the perfect term for stupid anime fans–“JapanFags.” The explanation was that they were people who “fuck Japanese culture up the ass,” by doing things like watching Dragonball Z.

I just, I just, I can’t even describe all the ways I disagree with this. Even leaving the “Fag” part off to the side, how does one fuck a culture up the ass? Especially from the vantage point of a community college course in the United States? Not only do Dragonball Z fans not fuck Japanese culture up the ass, Japanese people mostly don’t even know American anime fandom exists! The only Japanese people who care about what we’re doing are the anime industry people who want to sell things to us, and they will perfectly happy to sell Dragonball Z tapes if that’s what we’ll buy. I never cease to be amazed at how many North American anime fans angst over what a theoretical Japanese person would think of them. As long as you’re having fun with your hobby, who cares? Guess what! Japan won’t fall into the ocean because some fanboy ate Pocky instead of the more dignified Pretz! Besides, Japanese citizens don’t think much of *Japanese * anime fans–they are not going to think more of *you * because you write erudite essays on Sailor Moon instead of just buying a Dragonball Z t-shirt. Not that I think either option is somehow wrong. I think both are great, if that’s what you enjoy. I just think judging one as superior is ridiculous.

And then there’s the other part–the use of the word “fag” to insult these horrible slightly-less-obsessed masses who watch Dragonball Z and eat pocky. She posted it with a “Nobody be offended, now!” disclaimer. I posted that, yes, I was offended. I mean, the insult towards these people was based solely around connecting them to homosexual behavior, then using the worst anti-gay slur out there.

Have you ever noticed that, when told they’ve said something homophobic, people always say that their *dozens * and *dozens * of gay friends weren’t offended? She said her dozens and dozens of gay friends all the time use the word “fag.” A friend of hers popped by to say that “fag” has officially been reclaimed, for her gay friend called her a fag hag affectionately! Okay… if it’s reclaimed, then… why would it be used as an insult?

I was also told that I was going to get in the way of those “fighting real bigotry” and that I would “set gay rights back ten years” by being so hysterical as to suggest that fag, as an insult, is insulting to gays. I’m sorry, did gay rights groups start promoting use of the word fag or something? Because I sure could swear that most of the gay people I know (my *dozens * and *dozens * of gay friends!) are still pretty darn offended by it, particularly when used by straight people as a real insult. Don’t get me wrong–although I think the idea of “reclaiming” a slur doesn’t particularly work, I recognize that context is important. If she’d jokingly called a gay friend a “fag,” and he insulted her back, I’d assume that’s just how they like teasing each other. But this was not that situation. No actual gay people were involved in the use of this slur! Except those who were fucking Japanese culture up the ass, making them gay, making them fags, because they like totally suck and watch the wrong cartoons.

Now… come on. Am I crazy? Is there some way to interpret the insult “JapanFags” that isn’t homophobic? Because I sure can’t figure it out. Maybe I should ask her dozens and dozens of gay friends to explain it to me.

2

Eh, otakus.

3

Yeah. It’s pretty stupid to claim that it’s not insulting when you’re actively trying to use it as an insult. I mean, the other possibility is that it’s a term of endearment, which certainly doesn’t seem to be the case here.

And no, you are not “setting the gay rights movement back ten years.” I notice that nearly everyone who tries to actually do anything of any description in favour of gay rights is accused of the same, so you’re in excellent company.

4

“See, Donny? This is what happens when you fuck a culture up the ass!”

:smiley:

The usage of the term ‘fag’ or ‘gay’ to mean anything the speaker doesn’t like is distressingly common in eleven-year-olds. Do you really want to be friends with a bunch of pre-teens?

5

Yeah, gaijin Japan freaks can go way overboard. There must be a gene for foreigners who believe they possess the only road map to Japanese culture. Sadly there’s no cure. The only thing you can do is is persuade them to go teach English in Japan where they won’t bother you anymore.

The girl doesn’t proudly call herself an “otaku” does she? If so, she ought to know that in Japan the phrase doesn’t mean “obsessed over hobbies”, it means someone so socially inept that they close themselves in their rooms and literally do not see the outside world for months at a time. It is not the term of admiration that American anime freaks have somehow made it out to be.

6

Oh, don’t worry, I’m not talking with this ‘friend’ anymore. The anime angst I could take, but fag jokes are a bit much to me.

I figure it’d make me a hypocrite, anyway, if I accepted “JapanFag” where I’d be outrageously shocked and offended by, say, “JapanNigger” or “JapanKike,” even though I’m sure she’s got dozens and dozens of black friends and probably some Jewish friends too. Using references to gay people for general insults may be popular right now, but that’s not really an excuse for it…

I hope nobody’s misunderstood. I’m still a big anime fan. I use the word cartoon to emphasize how silly I think arguments over the superiority of shows are… but really, there are tons of anime fans who are great, intelligent and fun people. I have a wonderful time at the 2 or 3 anime cons I go to in a year. But in any group, there’s going to be those who are a little harder to get along with… or who have priorities I completely fail to understand. And we’re both far more hard-core (scary) anime fans than the type who don’t know what “otaku” means. I’m in Japanese IV this semester, I think she was supposed to be in Japanese II at her own school. She’s the kind of fan who angsts about how imaginary Japanese people spying on US anime fans will overhear words like “otaku” and freak out (and I imagine she’d call them “JapanFags.”) I’m the kind who thinks that once a major convention is named after the word, it’s time to quit worrying about it unless you’re actually in Japan or speaking to a Japanese person. And actually, I *used * the word in Japan, speaking to a Japanese person. I was kidding around, he could tell I was kidding around from context and tone of voice, we both laughed over it and jokingly insulted ourselves more with phrases like “big loser” and “never leaves the house,” good times were had by all. In fact, he started the “otaku” talk, discussing obsessed computer fans (of which he was one, although I’m sure he was using the word “otaku” as jokingly as I was.) So… yeah. *Not * something you’d say to your coworkers or on a first date, but ninja didn’t jump out of the bushes and decapitate us.

7

Or better yet, live there, meet folks and find out that… holy shit… it’s an actual country with actual people, who have, like… differences and stuff.

And I say this as a recovered Japan freak. I still love the place, but as a home, not an idealized concept. And believe me, I see the warts up close and ugly.

Of course, that doesn’t mean I won’t giggle at others who are still in the grips of hardcore Japanophilia, especially when they’re positive they understand the place so much better than everyone else just because they watch a particular anime. In fact, I’m giggling too hard right now to even be bothered by her equating anime with “Japanese culture,” although I know quite a few Japanese folks who’d be rather insulted by the idea (everyone else would just :rolleyes: at the dumb gaijin).

8

“Fullmetal Alchemist” and “Full Metal Alchemist” could mean different things though I have no idea if they do.

I have used to defense “but my gay friend didn’t find it offensive” but that was about a less stupid metaphor. And ‘fag’ has been partially reclaimed in the sense that I’m not surprised to hear people using ‘fag hag’ affectionately, etc.

Japanfag is really stupid. (1) It sounds stupid. It is aeuphonious. (2) It doesn’t make any sense. You’re saying ‘fucking up the ass’ is a bad thing, and yet it isn’t. WTF? (3) What has fucking up the ass got to do with it anyway? That implies Japan is suffering, whereas devalued would be a better concept.

9

I picture anime fandom as a colony of mice nipping at each others’ tails.

10

“Fullmetal” is probably written that way instead of “Full Metal” only because the original author didn’t space it correctly. The main character is nicknamed “the fullmetal alchemist” but I’ve also seen it written as “Full Metal” before on the show. It just isn’t spaced that way on the opening credits or the comic covers. This reminds me of people who insist that “Sailor Moon” be written “Sailormoon” because it’s printed that way on some of the Japanese trading cards.

But admitting that it’s a flaw in the English skills of the original creator would also mean admitting that Japanese people aren’t magical perfect fairies from kyapi-kyapi land…

11

Having spent 95% of my professional career fixing Japanese English, my personal guess (never having seen the actual item) is that the reason it’s spelled the way it is is most likely because of a) random chance, followed by b) it fit better in the logo design, trailed distantly by c) mistake. “Deep meaning steeped in Japanese culture” is somewhere back at v), just after u) creator saw it in a vision after eating some really good natto.

12

That said - don’t forget the original meaning of “geek”. Sometimes insults become marks of pride.

13

I was actually bothered a lot more by the whole “fag” thing than the anime thing… I mean, it’s a little annoying, but not something I’d exactly lose sleep over… Yet this thread has become about anime fans. I’ll, uh, I’ll just assume that using “fag” as an insult in a non-friendly or mutually joking scenario has obvious anti-gay undertones, and therefore anime fans are more entertaining to talk about.

I’ll take your word for it, Sublight! I admit I was too entertained by the idea of the peculiar punctuation being a mistake in the first place, but I’m almost positive your B) was at least the reason for the Sailormoon instead of Sailor Moon, now that you’ve suggested it. The font used on those cards was a sort of pseudo-cursive, and the space and capital M would probably not look as nice. I have no idea what “random chance” would be in this situation, though. Don’t these things have to be carefully designed? How could random chance become a part of it?

14

401 posts since registering in April 2001? Jeez, ain’t you a slacker. :wink:

You’re right. She’s wrong.

15

I have met JapanFags, but that was in certain bars in Shinjuku ni-chome in Tokyo.

16

So what if I like that show with the hamsters? What filthy thing am I doing to Japanese culture?

17

Nothing wrong with pacing yourself :slight_smile:

18

I’ve got a friend like that; it’s almost amusing to hear him talk about Japan like it’s a land of Samurai warriors that will be most impressed when he shows up with his completed English-language manga. Unfortunately I can imagine what it’s going to be like when reality slaps him in the face like a cold wet fish.

19

[Jimbo Jones] You kissed a girl! That’s so gay! [/Jimbo]

–Cliffy

20

My friend has a roomate who is like this girl. She used to work at a video store and would chew people out for mispronouncing some anime title. As in, “Its not ‘Princess Mononoke’, its Mononoke-hime you morons!” :eek: and she somehow didn’t get fired for screaming at customers.

When she goes on one of these rants while I’m at his apartment, I usually try to drown her out by turning up the volume on the computer speakers. It’s people like her that turned me off to going to anime conventions.

Then again, I only went for the porn…not that there’s anything wrong with that!