fair warning- I've got the drawing knives out

In this thread, inertia references an article on a certain lady’s newly-gained experience and resulting advice on dealing with her hubbie.
A fair part of that advice can be summed up in one word- surrrender.
But, if one reads deeper, and in doing so, sees what else the lady author is saying, one sees that, like many people who write, or speak, or communicate in any way, that there is apparently a good deal she leaves out, either through simple inadvertant omission, or the assumption that her audience has the mental where-with-all to correctly make change for a dollar, and can fill in the blanks for themselves.
Basically, she says to stop treating your husband meanly, treat him nicer. Do some things that might stick in your craw. Say some things that might stick in your craw.
Not unlike an apology- those can be very hard to do, but if you can’t do them, you are that much less of a full, able-to-appreciate-life-for-it’s-goods-and-bads person- you are constrained by your own self-hurting pride.
And she, and others referenced in the article, say the rewards are tremendous, that the husband starts reciprocating!
To boot, the qualifier is added that there are men you don’t waste this technique on, because they will simply take advantage of you for it.
So, she’s saying, be nicer, if you’ve got a 1/2 decent man- take the initiative for building a better relationship. It pays off, he’ll start being nicer too, and the two of you start enjoying rewards that you maybe haven’t even had to date in your relationship, or haven’t experienced in a long time.
She doesn’t say be a total slave or submissive wallflower. She says to do some things that might be hard at first, and if you’ve got the right man, it’ll pay off and come back your way. She says to be nice, even when you don’t want to. Not all the time, but more often than you may have been inclined to and in more ways than you might have been inclined to, to date in a relationship. Basically, do some things for/to the person you supposedly love, that show you love him. And you will get it back for yourself. But pick your man, use some experience/intelligence in this matter.
(As an aside, I would think that one of the qualifiers for a good man would be that you ARE able to express your displeasure to/with him, and get into some really good fights with him, time to time. IMHO, this might be one of the things the article left out. Maybe even the book, but since I haven’t seen so far that anybody’s actually read the book while feeling free to put the author through the wringer, I can’t say for sure.)

There is mention made of the 12 steps. I am a veteran of the 12 steps. When I can follow them, or some part of them, my life gets better.
Fuckin bet I’ve learned to surrender. Imperfectly, I still have lots of that shitty, over-sensitive pride of the type that maintains every single instance of human-to-human strife in the world, but I do it as I can.
Does that mean giving up? Nope- it helps to achieve my goals, goals that I often don’t even know I had, because I was too busy trying to make damn sure you didn’t tread on my precious ego, or making sure that things were absolutely fair (or weighted in my favor) in life.

Many of the responses in this thread come from women, some from men.
The majority of them make me think of certain terms and concepts, none of which are flattering.
Oh-so-Hip, Oh-so-cool-Sardonic, Psuedo-intellectual, Shitty, Non-thinking, mass media-influenced, herd animal.

Some times I use the herd animal thing in affection or teasing or joking or as a non-perjorative descriptive to indicate the majority.

Not today.

The two worst epithets I ever have are Non-thinking (for one’s self) and herd animal.

And I bet many of these repliers are the kind that go around saying that if we’d jsut elect a female president, by the goddess, all our troubles would be gone!

You fucking non-thinking herd animals.

Inor, sweetie, I’m sorry but I’ve read your OP twice now and I still haven’t got a clue as to who exactly you’re flaming. Inertia? Or Laura Doyle? Or the rest of us, for saying Laura Doyle is stupid?

Re Laura Doyle: Do a Web search for “Marabel Morgan Total Woman”, babe. You’ll see that the Seventies are back, with a vengeance. (Marabel is famous for being the one who told us, “Greet Hubby at the front door when he gets home from work, wearing nothing but Saran wrap.”)

Anybody else out there remember this? You’d have to be forty-something at least.

Also, FWIW, my pastor preached specifically against La Doyle last Sunday. Wanted to make it clear that these are not Biblical principles of surrender, only something she’s come up with herself (although, as I said, if she’s older than about 35 she’s subconsciously plagiarizing it from Marabel).

And I don’t think of myself as an “Oh-so-Hip, Oh-so-cool-Sardonic, Psuedo-intellectual, Shitty, Non-thinking, mass media-influenced, herd animal”, but I will go on record as stating that The Surrendered Wife sucks big donkey dick. Yet another personal experience making it into print and being touted as a general cure-all for what ails your marriage. Well, what works for Laura may not work for Jill down the street. Sounds to me like Laura lucked out and had a halfway decent, non-dysfunctional guy to practice her theory on. The mind boggles at what would have happened if she’d had Mr. Wife Beater in the driver’s seat (well, no New York Times bestseller, that’s for sure.)

inor, I think I know what you’re getting at; tell me if I’m wrong.

You feel that she’s basically just telling women to be nicer to their husbands and not question their every move, right?

I can appreciate that. I can’t remember in the thread who was talking about the lady that just criticized her husband every chance she got, but I think those are the type of women that the author is addressing.

However, a lot of women aren’t like that. Women have fought hard to get to point we’re at today in the world. I would hazard a guess to say that most women on this Board see the author’s premise as a throwback to the past, that she is basically asking them to give up everything that the feminist movement won for them and just go back to the “Leave It To Beaver”-type of mom/wife. And they are offended by it. I know I am. Again, I would hazard a guess that most of the women responding on this Board aren’t the “hypercritical, don’t-know-how-to-communicate-with-their-husbands, nagging hags” that I think this book addresses.

We’re not anti-man, we’re not herd animals. We just don’t want to regress back to the point where women were decorative work objects in the home and we resent a woman telling us this is the way to True Bliss, 'cause we know it ain’t so!

Agh! I remember that dreck! My Mom had it when I was a teenager and I read it for lack of anything else in the house that hadn’t already been read (it was a slow summer).

You mean there’s a woman in this day and age spewing forth that same shit? I think my Cousin Guido is free in a few weeks if we want to pass the hat for the contract to put out on her.

First off, I’ve cooled somewhat.
I sure didn’t expect the graciousness you two have shown me and I thank you both for it.

Now, I’m still pissed though, and will do my best to answer your posts, but ladies? There’s gonna be some pissiness coming through, so know that it’s not directed at you for what you have said, ok?

Yes, I was flaming all of you who said Mrs. Doyle is stupid but let me expand-

I did not mean to give the impression that I think your’re anti-man, but to me, it does seem like it sometimes. I’m speaking generically here.

But, to me, she removed herself from the stupid list when she qualified her points by saying, ‘hey, you shouldn’t do this with just any man- some are dickweed enough to jsut take advantage of it. But if you do have a half decent guy, try this out, you’ll get rewarded in kind.’
And I tink she’s right- any half-decent guy, not superman, not Mr. oh-so-womens-rights or someting like that would reciprocate. He would notice and start doing the same things back- he would bite his tongue, he would do someting in bed to you that you wanted but he might not necessarily want to do, he would maybe hand the checkbook back to you and quit bitching about your driving.
Because he is a half-decent guy, and noticed what you were doing, and would like it and want to respond in kind.

See? To me that qualifier takes her off the stupid list, IMO.
As to her aadvice not working for every Jill down the street, true, you are right. But part of that is mitigated by the simple qualifier above.
And part of it you’re jsut right, plain and simple. But many times this kind of thing happens- somebody finds somethingn they like that works, and want sto spread the word. And it is good advice for some, but not all.
I can think of many, many examples of this:

The Taliban
Practically every other organized religion i can think of

What I’m saying by this is that there are many ideologies that are helpful to many people, but not all people, even if they are in the situation the ideology addresses- different strokes for different folks. Like you both say. Life can be hard, and whatever serves you to get through it a little better, hey, I’m all for it, whether I use it or not.

But many practicioners of these ideologies tehn go and shoulder the zealot role, ramming it down MY throat, however gentle they might try to do it. Those examples, every one, illustrate this.

And that’s not ok with me- and Doyle ain’t doing that- you have to buy her book, or contact her organization of your own accord to hear what her views are. So, she’s doing what those examples above are doing, but in a classier way- I bet I never hear you guys say, ‘So, that fuckin Doyle broad came and knocked on my door today…’ or ‘so, that fuckin Doyle bitch! You hear what she’s trying to get passed in the House?’

As for moving back 20 years- I ain’t a woman, and so I an’t qualified to argue that, and probably wouldn’t anyway- I know you need to be vigilant about the gains you’ve made in the last decades and need to keep pushing till things are more equal. I wouldn’t stand in your way, and if you needed, I’d squat down bhind you and put my shoulder to your asses to lend to the upward/forward momentum.
But, I still don’t get the idea that she’s advocating turning back the clock- you nailed it when you paraphrased me, Bunny. I do think she’s advocating taking the initiative, though, but what’s so wrong about that?

So, given this, I think that it was un-thinking to just lace into her like I saw- I saw stuff there that is, no matter what, so knee-jerkingly mistaken it made me actually feel bad! Not mad, but bad!
Statements equating giving in to givng up your self-respect. In some cases, yes. But, like with everything, it’s a matter of degree. This has personally caused me much grief- too fucking proud or good to let the SO ahve her way, or anybody for that matter, whether she was right or wrong, but especially righteous about it whe whe was wrong. And I still got problems with it (Yehyeh- ur roolin ur eyes, right?;))
But anyways, so I fucking hate it when I see it.
And I see it in that thread.

Now, here’s part of it for me- I’ve seen threads aout whiny men, deadbeat dads, homophobes, misogynists, the sexual boors, this or that type of fundy, whatever.
I know there were rebuttals in those threads. But my point is those threads were started. And, in most cases, the person being discussed is a male. Usually a white male. Or, the discussion is of males as a class. Yes, there are rebuttals, yes there are some posts meant strictly TIC. But there are also plenty of mean posts to, in fact, it’s why the thread was started.
ok, here’s some I’ve never seen:
Hey Nigger- get in here!
So, this fat, ugly bitch tried to have sex with me- it was so fucking gross
Matt, you faggot!
So, my fuckin wife is a pms bitch and I fucking hate her

What? Women, fat people, gay people, whatever people don’t have short-comings too?

Fuck that- Everybody has their flaws, their unnattractive meannesses, but holy shit the bed- even go so far as to suggest it- ur ass it cinders- to me, proof is in that thread-
‘Hey ladies, be nicer to your hubbies’

‘Hey FUCK you man- there’s nothing wrong with us! We don’t have to and who the fuck is your stupid ass again?’

I know there were other types of reponses, but the only ones I saw that dared to breach this particular tide were pretty hesitant indeed- and for good reason.

I am a white guy. I’ve been a shithook to good women. I wish I hadn’t, and hav ebeen a shithook to other peopl as well- I take that back- there are cases where I don’t regret it.
But it’s about being a shithook, not a man. You all been shithooks too, in your lives. Is that all about because you’re female? Or fat? Or thin? Or gay?
Nope, it’s because you were being a shithook.

I’ve seen Biggirls Last allowable stereotype thread, and guessing from her name and the title, it’s probably about how people don’t feel bad about typing fat people.

Well, if that’s the case, she’s wrong. It’s not the last allowable stereotype.

Any fuckin gstereotype is allowed, as long as it has to do with men.
Am I complaining about this?
Nope- I get disgusted sometimes, laugh sometimes, it doen’st affect me sometimes, feel bad sometimes- but I like to bitch sometimes, and think you doing the same is good, even if you’re bitching about me, or the sex/unrace/class I belong to. I wouldn’t dream of censoring your right and the joy derived from it- it gets the shit out- you can come bitch here, maybe then deal with your hubbie in a manner that will be more conducive to good results.
You wanna come here and bitch specifically about a man or make it generalized to men in general, I got no kick with that.

But sometimes, I get tired of it, and sometimes, I’m gonna get mad. And react.
And to anybody who comes in here reacting back, fucking great! I warned you up top- I’ll flay your sorry ass so thin they’ll be able to dry you out like a fruit roll-up, dry it, and substitute it for gold leaf.

'less I flare out early and lose the force, luke…


So, this took me a while, I wonder who’s posted since I saw the thread last? I hope it’s someone I hate…

inor, sweetie, lover muffin…

I understand your position that not beating up on people is a good thing. However, on the extreme off-chance that I marry an incompetent twerp, I will not universally close my eyes to bad stuff for his manly ego.

Especially when it comes to parenting, or anything else that needs to be done well as a team.

“Honey, Junior got another C in math so I beat him senseless again.”
“That’s great, oh delight of my very existance and master of the domain. I’m so glad you take an interest in our spawn’s achievements.”

Ummmm…No. No one gets a free pass to do anything they please and have me worship it. It devalues me and it devalues my praise and love.

There are extremes both ways that are bad, but in general I’d rather leave total submission for bedroom games.

I like her…

fuck fuck fuck…

o., and now I see the DemiG has piped in with her damnable sweetness and reason.

godamm it! you guys go to a movie r someting, willya?

[sub]this ain’t the place for that kinda thing. I’ll get all 4 of you back, I swear it…

inor? I’m sorry I gotta disagree with you here, please don’t leave the bathroom? :wink:

I think there is a big diffrence in what you are saying, and what she is saying, even if it is just semantics(is that the right word?). What you are saying is Be Nice to Your Man and what she is saying is Surrender to Your Man. Even if you both are preaching the same doctrine, people will rally against her, because she is using an unpleasant term. Bad analogy, but all I can think of, so here goes. How far do you think Martin Luther King Jr. would have gotten if instead of advocating non-violence, he said “Surrender to The White Man!” To surrender to someone has the connotations of giving up yourself, letting yourself be owned. I’m all for being nice to your husband, I had so many lovely plans to do for my husband when I was engaged, I would have enjoyed doing them! But I will never, ever let myself be owned.

you got a good point.
I’m gona rebut al ittle bit-
(sorry bout the spelling and stuff- inor aint’ relaxed…)
anyways, I like it, but understand what you’re saying but then this:

I mentioned being a veteran of the steps above.
the way it’s put is surrender- surrender to god.
hard, hard, expecially since the grandaddy of those types of books says me and mine are ‘examples of self-will run riot’- it’s true, too, little kings, every single addict/alchoholic, at least while they can still affor d to be, and long as tehy can get away with it afterwards too.

but, surrender.

and, it’s brought positive results in my life, and i bet in ya’lls too- maybe there’s been little things you’ve given in on or someting. and maybe it didn’t work out like you wanted it to, but sometimes it produced good results for you, didn’t it?
I still say you have a valid point though- people are prideful, scared of losing something etc…so you have to deal with them where they are, not where you tinkn they should be. So you’re right.

Helloooo, ladies? Did you ahppen to see the title to this thread? Can you please take your reasonable, nice-butt havin selves elsewhere? You’re pissin all over my pissin match…
Ahhh, fuck, I’m done with it anyway.
Anybody wants to come in here and cut loose, have at it rat. I put the knives away::sob, they were so pretty and glinty and shit and I couldn’t wait to use them…::

Thanks you guys…

[sub]leave the bathroom she sez- huh- dumb broad, she think I’m gonna leave any bathroom she’s in?

I wasn’t saying surrendering is bad, especialy surrendering to God, just surrendering to another* person*. Maybe it’s 'cause I have a devilish hard time trusting people, but I think it is a bad idea to let other people rule your life.

[sub]Don’t worry 'bout the spelling, inor. I can’t speak for the other ladies in this thread, but I think it’s cute. Then again, I think lotsa things you do are cute… ;)[/sub]
Off subject momentairly, I like what you said about addicts being “little kings.” Thinking of all the addicts I know… yup, fits most, if not all of them…

Oh, and smooch!

Well, thank you inor, I like you too.

I know you say you’re done with this but I just want to point out some little things.

There’s a difference between surrender and compromise in a relationship. Relationships are built on compromise. Surrendering yourself to another human being results in a loss of Self that is horribly difficult to pull yourself out of. I know. I did it in my first marriage, bound and determined to do anything to keep from getting a divorce. Big disaster for Self. Huge. It was only the birth of my daughter that made me take a look at myself and I did not even know myself anymore and I didn’t like what I saw at all. It took me years to find Me again.

There’s a difference between surrendering yourself to God, or whatever Higher Power and surrendering yourself to another person. The first is to make you stronger. The second just makes you a doormat.

Ma’ams, I know that- you’re right.

What I meant was, not in all cases. Ain’t it nice sometimes when you let him have his way?
If he reciprocates? Even if he doesn’t sometimes?

To me, it’s a matter of give and take, a matter of degree.
Surrendering to someone can make you a doormat.
But, it doesn’t have to.

And I hope you are now doing the kind that brings sweetness, and know about and empathize with any of the bad kind you have done.
hokay, now I’m done…

see, this is why I need a guardian, and why my post count is so high relic-

as per above- with what I said there-
given all those tings, those sometimes this’s and sometimes that’s,

well, on the good side, surrender doesn’t mean you’re weak, it means you’re strong.

and it ain’t a way to lose yourself.
It’s a way to find yourself.

now, I’m really, really done.

Depends. You must choose your battles wisely. Much like with teenagers. No, I don’t particulary care for some of my daughter’s clothes, or her music and I really wish her room didn’t look like a tornado just ripped through it. But really now, are these the things that are going to endanger herself and others? No. Compromise on my part. Does it make her happy to dress like a flower child on acid? Heaven help us, yes. Compromise on my part. Is it okay to let her -a 14 year old girl- go to a party with a bunch of older people where alcohol is going to be served just because her friends are going? Hell no! No compromise! No surrender! No quarter!

Richard likes to drive my car when we go places. I let him, it’s a small matter. He believes in the Laundry Fairy who comes around, picks up his clothes where he dropped them and does his laundry. The Laundry Fairy has gone on strike. She doesn’t wash it if it isn’t in the laundry room. I don’t yell, I don’t nag, he just doesn’t have clean socks unless he does things the way everyone else has to do them. Should I stand by and let him spend the mortage payment on something we don’t need but he really wants? Hell no! No compromise! No surrender! No quarter!
Okay, now I’m done :slight_smile:

Yes, but only if it’s for a good thing. For years, hell most of my life, I surrendered to a male figure. Someone made me realize that is wasn’t a good thing, it wasn’t good for me, and now I struggle to surrender to my own sweet self. (I wish I could make that person who helped me realize what I was surrendering to was wrong realize that what he is surrendering to is wrong. :() I am more than willing to surrender myself to love, but not to my husband. There, I think that is the point I’ve been trying to get at! :slight_smile: Surrendering yourself to concepts, ideas, causes… that is good, if the concept, idea or cause is good, and you keep yourself, or find yourself, for that matter. But surrendering yourself to another human being is not good, because you repress yourself. Another human being is not capable of knowing what is in your heart.

My brain hurts… This is why I stay out of Great Debates… I know I’d find something I want to debate, but oh, the aching :smiley:

yup- that’s kind of what I’m saying.-
Srrender ain’t necessarily a bad thing.

Even the bad times you went through wtih yoru marriage where you did it all- that’s like an operation, sucks to go through, but in the end, you are better off for it-
Now you know more about what you are willing to and not to put up with, now you have some boundaries, and now you still surrender some, you just pick the battle-
your daughter? that’s surrender and love, as opposed to no surrender, and unahppiness on both your parts.
Then, with the partying, that’s no surrender, and still love.
Neither one is extreme, both are for real love.

And you got some of it from the bad times when you were doing all the giving in-

In other words- you learned to define yourself more- you lost yourself for a bit, became a doormat for a bit, but now you are found, now you are strong.
I’m not defending the bad times, jsut showing how surrender is good at times, and saw this part too, and so thought I’d mention how even the bad surrender was ultimately good for you. Made you stronger. Made you found.
Having said that- I’m still disgusted withthat thread, both with the contents, and the unthinking, reflexive nature of said contents.
And, I know I did that same with initiating this thrread.
And, I’m still of my opinions that it seems to me that it’s ok to bash men, straight men, white men, but lord help yer scrawny ass if you decide to bash any other group of people, and from time to time, I’m gonna bash back.

And I’m gonna do it well.

I really really like you- lots and lots.

Having said that- yes, it IS good to surrender yoursel to another person- just like Arden said- pick yer battles, and like I said, (and La Doyle, not incidentally), pick yer man.

If you can’t, then you can’t open up all the way, can’t experience the depth that you would othewise have.

You get the right person, it’s heaven and a very good life. you get the wrong person, it’s pure hell.

And, you don’t defer all the time, but sometimes. It’s what makes everything in the world work. And surrender is just another word for it. So is trust.

Having said that, from the little I know, you do this instinctively, and I think that’s good, so very good. But from the little I know, it’s been with the wrong person(s) so far.

And young lady, I’m really hopin the right one comes to you soon- most of us go through lots and lots of wrong ones, lot’s and lot’s of time, too. LOooong old time. But some of us do get lucky. (Actually- it’s more than luck, it’s good sense- the bad thing about good sense is that most of us go through hellish bad times due to un-good sense in acquiring it.)

Um, inor, I think we are arguing the same points, just using diffrent words.

In my mind, to surender to another person is to totaly give yourself over to them. Always and no matter what. Even if they are wrong. I will not do that. What I mean by surrendering to love, is, well, exactly what you are saying surrendering to another person is. And that is good!
:waves white flag:
Thats it! I surrender! :smiley:


me too.

and smoooch back

Guess I didn’t understand what you were getting at…

Is otay. Half the time I don’t know what I’m getting at!