I don’t know if you’ve seen it yet, but if you haven’t,
if ya have, well feh…
inor, are you still arguing that Doyle’s position makes sense? Here’s an excerpt from that article:
If I were to paraphrase, I would get, “Your thoughts, feelings, and desires are not important. Do whatever you husband says unless it’s going to physically hurt you.” That is why I personally criticised the article the way I did. The idea that you have to give up your identity to be loved is ugly and wrong, wrong, wrong. There is compromise, there may be “surrender” in some respects, and constant, needling criticism of every little mistake is a bad thing, but the kind of flat out servitude that she proposes is stupid and dangerous, IMHO.
If you can’t take constructive criticism from someone you love, then you how can ever expect to improve yourself and grow as an individual?
Um, mrblue? Have you read what me, inor and Arden have been saying?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that what inor has been saying? 
Well, you see I read it… Comprehension is another story. I guess I got a little light-headed about halfway through and kinda missed inor’s change of heart.
Sorry.
I forgive you. I’m sure inie forgives you too.
Can I call you inie? 
And I’m not sure it was a change of heart, more like making an idea a bit clearer…
Again, I’m speaking for inie… I’ll sush now!
I get it. I get what you’re saying, inor, and I got what you were saying even before all the good discussion posts explicating parts of it. But I’ll bet you knew that already, since my post to that thread was atypical.
So, to the women who are disturbed by the surrender thing: I think if you (we) want to fight your enemy, you need to know your enemy. That means seeing the wisdom in their position, however obscure it may be. I think it is the “herd mentality” you talk about that makes some of the women in that thread do little more than holler loudly about that book being pure unmitigated tripe.
Well, sure, it’s fun to bitch about. But if you really want to refute the “surrender” mentality, find the strong parts of the argument and acknowledge them. Then refute them. Maybe most people think there isn’t enough worthwhile in that book to bother. But some have. Like DDG’s preacher, for example.
Hey! People are handing out smooches and not to me too!
I leave for a few measly days and poof no one cares anymore.
Well, I still love you all anyway. So there.
[sub]Harumph.[/sub]
Oh, like I could forget you!
smooch
Will a hug do, Medea? hug!
How are you feeling, hon?
::pulls his steely knives back in with a steely sound, favors Miss 11 with a steely, appreciative, grizzled gaze, for what she’s done for him and steelily lets his eyes wander appreciatively up and down and some over there, and across and diagonally her slim figure in her simple, homesppun dress, hugging her steely figure in the steely, steely breeze. His steely eyes wander some more, across the street, up to the top of the hotel, down to his pants, where he fiddles witha sauce stain in a steely, absent kind of way. They sort of wander up the street and down the street, and finally back to Miss 11, and his steely grizzled gaze sets up the heat of rolling prairie fires, the untamed howling of wild wolves who are coldern shit and pissed off about it, in her tender young, innocent, thudding heart, and she trembles.
She trembles under that steely, grizzled, appreciative gaze because although she will deny it to her dying breath, she jsut let one and it turned out to be a bit of a butt suprise.
inie turns away and mounts up, and with a steely flick of the reins, rides off to, um, to…to bed, majestic on his toys-r-us stick horse, making really good horse sound effects with his steely, grizzled, appreciative voice.
He truns back once, and sees her there, holding her butt in the breeze, and hears her fondly, clearly, and most matter-of-factly say, ‘God, you’re such a dork sometimes…’::
cranky- I had to look up explicate cause I wasn’t sure if you were insulting me…
I’m still not sure- tgoddmamcatgetoffme!!
that, sorry about that- I’m typing with a cat on my forearms…
anyway, enemy and wisdom, no matter how obscure, methinks could be a subtle slap, but if it is, I ain’t gonna argue it, and if it ain’t, then I think I ws complimented and thank you, and yes, I did notice some non-herd, thinking posts in that thread and mentioned them, you’re right. And yes, I noticed you were one of those- not rabid, intelligent, thoughtful, no generalizations, if i recall, and I thank you very much for it- you carry some weight around here and it’s nice to see what you did.
And thank you for getting what I said- I’m grateful, as i am to the other women who’ve contributed to tihs thread.
mrblue
you are a stupid dummy peehead and I’m not your friend right now.
Medea- smooooooooooochain’t doneit for severaldaysandwassoodry
And miss relic…
Well, if any of you laughed at the western piece, then you’ve been smooched! even mrblue :GAck, spits…:
inor!
smoooooch! hiya babes.
Oh and while I have your dear attention…please be nice to mrblue? For me? He’s a buddy of mine and a sweetie as well… Play nice! That’s a good inor…
(oh hell…'nother smooch!)
relic, Its been a good break, so I’m doing fine…need a summer job, but I’m doing okay. How are you hun? hug
Steve, I know you’ll give me smooches and you don’t forget me. Goes without saying dear heart.
And I still state my position that surrender involves locked doors and leather cuffs. (And there’s nothing wrong with that.)
Sometimes nice guys can become not-so-nice guys because of the way they are treated, and yes, often they can be ‘reformed’ if someone else takes the first step to treat them better and let them have their way more often. It’s happened to me.
i was playing nice- notice the part about pullin in my steely knives?
I saw what had happened in my absence, I know who blueis, and on that recommendation, am being nice…
lilsmuch
relic-oy gevalt- what the hell’s 'at mean and quit talkin franch around me…specially with a yiddish accent.
Blue- I was teasin, or I woldn’t have smooched you (one fair can hear the sound of blue throqing violently up)
Cranky- I reread, and think there is no insult and again I thank you- sounds presumptuous i know, thanking you for your viewpoint, but as indicated in some of the general tone of my posts, I was feeling very what? very something, and it was nice to see you say that.
Badtz- what the hell is wrong with you? I’ve been noticing some of your posts now for a while, you always come in humble as opposed to arrogant, and you’re always saying something reasonable.
Again, what the hell’s wrong with you?
K
finished my posting
wlaked the dogs
swapped a flat tire on the only car running
put plates on that car from another car so i can drive it in the morning to work illegally
marveled at my mechanical expertise in so solving such a situation
re-made my bed from the little suprise this morning, after washing everything
Good?
Good
inor goes to bed.
night all.
You know who I am? Really? Can you tell me?
You see, I wasn’t sure exactly. And since I misinterpreted you the first time around, I thought that she whose very touch demands obedience would be better able to feel out (not up) your intentions. This sort of thing happened once before and it got ugly–I’m not looking for a repeat performance.
And, for future reference, don’t smooch me, K? All’s forgiven? Good. Now we can get back to kissing the proper people.
relic: Thanks for understanding and playing the peacemaker. smooch
Kathryn: Thanks for being you. smooch (Do I get to tell you how I feel again, or does that still embarass you? Doesn’t everybody here know by now?)
Sorry for the confusion, inor. I was addressing two different “people” in my post, you and the people who might disagree with you, only I mixed it all up and it’s a miracle you understood a whit of it. But yes, your second reading was correct. I see where you are coming from.
And I don’t think that “surrender” book is completely off base. That thudding sound? My husband passing out. Don’t mind him.
I too think there is a herd mentality to that thread (not all of it, of course) and was suggesting that those people who find the surrender thing so ghastly would get further refuting it if they’d take the time to see why it does appeal to some people. And see that it’s not just blather that the book author is proposing. Do I suggest the book (which I’ve never read, BTW) is the answer to a good marriage? No way. But some of the principles it’s based on are not bad things to keep in mind when you’re trying to be a life partner. I believe that is what you, inor, are saying.
that’s what these pit threads are-
pure, unmitigated, every-dog-eat-dog-for-itself hell.
you jsut said it wayyyyy better and shorter tahn I ever could though…
(well, see, cause I get these fits…)
I did not feel there was really that much of a “herd mentality” in the thread. Most of posts are along the lines of “what’s wrong with being equals?” I thought the problem with the book was so blatantly obvious that I didn’t bother going into detail and had fun with the sarcasm instead. After all, the thread is MPSIMS not GD. But of course your points are valid, so long as “surrender” is taken in the proper context. Personally I think the connotations behind that word are the wrong ones.
But isn’t that almost always the case? Someone takes a piece of good advice and then flies off on a wild tangent with it, taking it to the extreme… and shoving relationships into a one-size-fits-all is a nasty idea. Maybe Doyle’s method could help some people who are so screwed up to begin with that any change toward compromise would be an improvement, but trading one psychosis for another hardly seems helpful.
Unless I’m mistaken, it seems we mostly agree on the subject, so really this is just a debate on how to criticize, no?
inor, you’re always nice grin mrblue was just worried and he gets really serious like that.
GREATBIGSMOOCHIE
mrblue, you won’t let inor smooch you? insecure? evil grin
as for your opinions, do as you will. hugnsmooch (debating and smooches in the pit…we’re all going to get thrown out)