I think we all agree that compromise in a marriage is good and necessary. Ms. Doyle isn’t talking about compromise, though. She literally says “surrender” and I think she means that literally.
For instance, she says that a wife should surrender all finances to her husband. That’s just stupid. A grown woman should be able to have knowledge of where the money is going and should also have the opportunity to help make those decisions. Afterall, it’s likely that she’s bringing in a good chunk of it herself. You’re going to say, “Surrender only applies if you pick a good guy. If he’s a good man, he’ll make the right decisions.” Doesn’t matter. A very good man might make a decision that isn’t the best one and that might have been different if there had been another brain working on the problem.
Women don’t have the right to have control of their husbands, but we do have the right to have control of our own lives. We may decide to compromise on certain things - and that’s good - but we should make sure that we have enough knowledge of a situation to choose when to compromise. Ms. Doyle is not saying, “Compromise and be nice.” She is saying “Surrender”.
Besides, what happens when the husband gets bored with his little servant of a wife and takes off? What if he dies? The clueless wife is going to have a little problem on her hands when she realizes she has no idea where their money has been going, even if it has been going toward good things.
Badtz said:
What, you don’t have control of the way you act? You need a woman to be your saviour??? I just don’t get this sort of attitude and it pisses me off. Men like this need to take responsibility for their own actions and stop whining about how they wouldn’t be such assholes if their women weren’t __________(nags, bitches, whores, etc.). People who aren’t “nice” are that way because they choose to be that way. They are choosing how to react in a certain situation.
Badtz, I’m not at all trying to imply that you are the sort of person to take it this far, but this is the type of thing that abusive people say - “If she hadn’t been such a bitch, I wouldn’t have hit her. If she hadn’t nagged me so much, I wouldn’t have had to beat her. If I had a woman who treated me better, I wouldn’t be such an abusive asshole.”
To tell a woman that all she has to do is shut up and be sweet and everything will be good is bad advice and could be dangerous advice.
Insecure? No. Uncomfortable? Definitely. I think we’ve talked about this a little bit before.
Which opinions? The debate (which I think we’re in agreement on) or my opinions on you (which for the most part we seem to agree on)?
So the thread gets tossed to MPSIMS, so what? But I should ask if we personally are still drawing lines in the sand here… before I start nibbling on your ear.
Can we please stick the the OP and avoid posting your desire to smooch each other? If you wanna smooch, work your way over to MPSIMS and smear the PDA to your heart’s content.
C3-
First, show me where anyone said to follow Doyles advice literally.
Then, show me where you, by essentially paraphrasing what has already been said in this thread, have added to it.
Then, answer this piece of stinky offal:
He said to paraphrase, ‘a guy who has been treated badly’. Sure, men like this need to take responsibility for their actions-
who has said otherwise?
where the hell did this come from?
Are you saying Badtz is some kind of shithead?
I see this all the time with women- they get treated badly and start trashing men- an excellent example is much of the fucking thread in question here, there are many more, jsut on these goddamm boards- you gonna sit there and say you haven’t ever seen this? And you have the fuckin gall to say men gotta own up to their shit and it pisses you off, but no fucking mention of the female side of the coin?
Oh, and for the freakin record, lil miss ivory up her ass tower, most times, no, it isn’t because they choose to be this way- wither there is someting physiologically wrong, or there are psychological issues that are running the way they behave, that sometimes can be helped with current therapy technology, and some, we don’t know enough to help yet. I don’t defend these people, although I empathize with them, as being viewed as pariahs and shitty people, when in fact there is something going on with them, that they do not, for whatever reason, have control over, and jsut hate dipshits like you, on your goddam high moral horses. You want a cite? Fuck you- I’ve lived it most of my adult life, and lived in the shadow of it as a kid- go look up your own cites. Make damn sure they’re biased enough to support your dna-less view of the world, maybe get someone to preview them for you who is familiar with you and your missing cerebral cortex.
Lastly- You’re saying ‘hey asshole, change! Take the initiative, be responsible for your goddam actions!’
Well, I think that’s kind of what Doyle is saying to, only she is saying it to women, and in a fostering, rather than hateful way.
There is no debate here, I started this thread and can say that. This thread was for hate, flaming, fighting. There happens to have occurred reason, persuasion, agreement, and friendship.
But no fucking debate- you want that, take your magic talkin ass over to GD. Be pissed off over there- only thing you’re gonna get here is pissed on.
Whoa, chill, dude! That was a bit overreactive! Oh, I remember, this is the Pit and we’re all looking for reasons to throw around curse words and call each other names. Sorry, I forgot. :rolleyes:
I will reply. Forgive me if I remain civil.
My point is not that you or anyone else here said to take her literally. My point is that my perception is that Doyle does mean to be taken literally. She does not say, “Be nice to your man.” That would be reasonable. She does not say, “Make sure you compromise with your husband.” That, also, would be reasonable. You, and others, have pointed out that this is what you took from the book. That’s fine. You’ve managed to glean some reasonable advice from Doyle. Fine. I do not think that what you’ve gleaned, however, is what Doyle’s main point is.
On my comments to Badtz, I stand by them. I’ve read your response three times and I’m having trouble figuring out exactly what you’re saying. My reading comprehension is much better when grammatically correct sentences are involved. I’ll do my best at interpreting what you’ve written, though.
My paraphrase of Badtz: I’m really a nice guy, but when a woman nags me or isn’t nice to me, I’m an asshole. If assholes were treated better by our women, we’d be nicer. I know, I’ve been there.
I think that real nice guys (and nice girls) who are treated badly by their women (men) a) try to work it out with them or b) get out of the relationship. When anyone acts like an asshole, it’s because they choose to. I think the attitude that some people (men and women) have that they act inappropriately because someone else made them is despicable. If this is really what Badtz does, I think he needs to think about this and try to look at his behavior from a different perspective. I said that the perspective he has is similar to what an abuser believes, although I was very careful to say I was not in any way implying that he is, was, or will be an abuser.
inor said:
How is what I said “trashing men”? What I said could equally be applied to women. The book in question, though, was addressing a woman’s need to “surrender” to her husband and do whatever he says so that, god forbid, he doesn’t have to act like an asshole in response to her behavior.
In addition, regardless of whatever insight you think you have into my past, I really couldn’t say that I’ve been treated badly by a man. I’m a nice person. I do treat my husband nicely and compromise with him. I do this because I choose to be a good person and because he deserves to be treated well. I do not do this in order to manipulate him, get what I want, or out of fear. I believe that Doyle’s “Surrender” theory subscribes more to these latter theories than the ones I have.
inor said:
Um, okay. I think that most people who act like assholes, unless they have a mental illness, do so because they choose to. You’re saying that people can’t help the way they act? You’re saying that if my husband pitched a fit because I didn’t have dinner ready for him when he got home (he wouldn’t do this, by the way) can’t help the way he’s acting? And you’re saying that if I would just be nicer and be sure to cater to his demands, he wouldn’t have to be such a jerk? You’re saying that the solution here is for me to “surrender” to his whims instead of getting some serious marriage counseling and doing some soulsearching about why I would choose such a horrific person to be my mate for life? If you are not saying this, then you are not agreeing with Doyle’s perspective.
“High moral horse” or not, I do believe in personal responsibility for one’s actions and I do think people who act shitty are, generally, shitty people. If they need therapy to figure that out, then fine, but no sympathy from me until they acknowledge the fact that they are choosing to be jerks. This applies to men and women, just in case I’m not being clear about that.
If you’ve had people treat you badly in the past, I’m sorry you had to go through that. People who treat other’s badly, however, mostly do that because they are choosing to. I have a close relative (I won’t say who, for purposes of other people’s privacy) who cheated on his wife. Did he do this because she spoke up when he passed his exit on the highway? Did he do this because she nagged him about picking his dirty underwear up off the floor? No. He did this because he chose to sleep with a woman who wasn’t his wife. If he was having problems in the marriage, he could have talked to his wife about it. He could have tried counseling. He could have left. He chose to screw someone in a hotel room. I’m not saying that women can do whatever they want, nag away, belittle their husbands, etc. I’m just saying that men are also responsible for their behavior. Like I said in my first post here, I think we all agree on this point. I’m simply saying that this is not Doyle’s perspective.
inor said:
I have no time for hate in my life, or flaming and fighting, for that matter. You are welcome to those feelings and behaviors. I choose to opt out.
{Note- I edited to fix the coding. Lynn}
[Edited by Lynn Bodoni on 03-08-2001 at 07:56 PM]
coming in here and pissing on the floor, misinterpreting about every thing I said, double-backing on what you said, and now, since you got no time for the uglier, baser emotions, displayed rather prominently in your posts, albiet in a nice, refined way, you’re going to leave.
Uh huh.
Well, I’m still gonna take your ass apart in a mispelled, un-grammatical kinda way, but later, I’m at work now and don’t have the time to devote to it that it deserves, so C3?
Oh, I didn’t say I was going to leave. I just meant that I’m opting out of the hate, flaming, and fighting.
I’ll concede that I may have misinterpreted what you said. I am having an awfully hard time following what you’re saying. What I think you’re saying is that when Doyle says “surrender” she really means “be nice and compromise” and who can’t agree with that? I’m saying that, although that’s how you’re interpreting her, I do not believe that is the correct interpretation.
I’ll be looking forward to your examples of how I “pissed on the floor” (whatever that means) and “double-backed” on what I said.
I WILL come back!!
(and thank you for calling me pretty and pure…I do try!)
**
I am one of the respondents to the OP by inertia that you may be talking about, and I don’t consider my responses in that thread to be indicative of a herd-animal mentality on my part, or that I am non-thinking. I read the article about Laura Doyle, and I disagree with her premises and her methods. I came to this conclusion by using my brain and thinking about what was being said (and no, I didn’t discard her opinion out of hand; I actually considered whether it had any value); guess that rules out the non-thinking charge. I read the article and crafted my response before I saw what anyone else had said; guess that rules out the herd animal charge.
Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to respond to your claims.
Well, of course he did dear, he’s only just 13, and mortally afraid of you, as would I be in his place. Why? Well, look at what he has to say about incredibly manipulative, flat-out bossing around, underground and disguised manipulations, and gettting everything her own way.
Now, Lou’s magic talking ass, given that your SO is of such tender years, how, one wonders, would he have such insight to such a personality? Hmmm?
OOO pick me rino! pick me!!!mememememememememeiknowiknow!!
You there- in the flannel shirt with the stains on your pants, yes you, what do you think, then, eh?
::rises:: Ahuh…well, sir… I think it’s maybe because he’s paired up with someone like he describes? So that he has had to deal with it every goddamm miserable shit ass fucking day for the last however many sucky years of his pitiful, terrorized butt-fucked-with-a-strap-on existence with this alleged person?
Oh, very good, anonymous person, very good. We could have done without the , er, color, but an excellent, reasoned answer regardless.
Well, Lou’s magic talking ass, lets then examine the first quote of your frothings, shall we? And, may I state at this time, that both of these quotes, actually there are three different ones, are from the thread referred to in the OP? Yes? Good.
Now, inor has made mention of the term ‘non-thinking herd animals’. As I am on intimate terms with him, let me say that I feel absolutely confident of my ability to relate that term to your, er, ‘posts’.
(Oh, and by the by, we briefly toyed with the possibility of using the terms ‘bitch’ and ‘cunt’ to refer to you and the illustrious C3, but decided against doing so for several reasons. One is that inor has several dogs. One of them, Frankie, is the mate to one of the other ones, and dam to the other two, and he does love her dearly. She is a lady, an excellent and most beautiful dog, and, when whelping, a finer mother you won’t find. Had he used the term bitch, he wouldn’t have been able to look her in the eyes for weeks, and he simply dreaded that possibility.
As to the term ‘cunt’, well, this word has some pleasant associations for him, and he was loathe to mar this. Also, these types of names are so silly, don’t you agree? They are not descriptive, they only get their power from the meaning lent them by the person speaking them, and since a person who is using them to express anger is most likely obviously angry, well, you can see the redundancy, can’t you? No, no. He likes the much more meaningful and descriptive ‘non-thinking herd animals’. Indeed, he does consider it the very worst thing he could call a person. There is a caveat to this, however, and that is, while he considers this, when he is using it in the proper context, the very worst slur at his command, he realizes that not everyone would agree with him. So, if you prefer the term ‘bitch’, or ‘cunt’, I am happy to report he has expressly authorized me to accomodate you both on that score. Do, please, let us know by post, won’t you?)
Back to the matter of your first two posts, quoted together.
Please re-read these, if indeed you have read them at all, instead of reflexively producing them by means of a process remarkably similar to vomiting and then simply passing blithely on in the world, like some sort of keyboard-enabled, lighter-than-air floating bovine, and then come back here to discuss.
Finished? Good. No cheating, I hope. After all, they are your words.
Take them line by line, savor them. Take the post as a whole, let it simmer for a bit in the mostly-empty kitchen vessel you refer to as your head.
Do you notice anything? Does anything jump out at you after awhile?
This is what we noticed-
Imagine you are back in middle school, and there is the obligatory clique of ‘popular girls’. Every school has them- they are the ones that congregate at every opportunity, take the same classes when they can, have all the sporty boyfriends, etc. Now, one characteristic of these groups, these little herds, if you will allow me that, is that they often have hangers-on. These are almost like pledges. They are often younger, ‘less cool’ girls. A little less experienced, a little more naive. They want so badly to be a part of the herd, but the herd keeps them on the fringes, cultivating them for induction, possibly, down the road. The herd allows these pathetic specimens, though, because by being less cool, lees valuable, they serve to enhance the coolness of the actual members of the herd, as a sort of contrast. By doing so, they also serve the purpose of a type of ‘cool reflector’, that is, the herd animals proper use them as ‘yes walls’ to feed their coolness levels. These fringes members also have the handy feature of being able to be used to run errands.
Now, imagine that many of the voices we heard in that thread are the ‘cool girls’. Very hip, very individualistic, very assertive and aggressive. They aren’t really, every thing they say comes from this or that magazine, other people, or television shows that they have elevated to the status of ‘arbiter-of-what-I-say-think-and-do’ in their lives.
And there you are, little Lou’s magic talking ass. A hanger-on, a pledge, a trying-to-be-cool fringe element.
Don’t those posts of yours seem to exude that feel?
Yes indeedy, yes they do. Can you see it? Can you feel it? Once you do, you cannot not see it.
It’s trite, it’s so shiny and idealistic it fairly bleeds the sensation that you are describing things as the way you wish they were, things as you think they ought to be, things as dictated to you by a year’s worth of ‘Glamour’ magazine, no doubt propped up by a few articles in ‘Teen’ and ‘Teen People’.
It’s shallow, it’s hollow. So hollow that inor very briefly toyed with the idea of starting up a drug habit again, just so he could use it to stash his junk in. His reasoning was, I believe, that anyone looking for his stash would either be asleep, laughing hysterically, or bored to the mental state of a re-animated corpse in looking for it, and thus would never find it.
He has asked me, though, to ask you who picked out your signature for you, he rather likes it.
The remark in the second of those posts about the woman’s chapeau is just juvenile, and completely in character for the personage of a hanger-on trying to curry favor with the herd. It would be good if it was funny, but it’s not. I’m so sorry to be the one to tell you this. It’s just a little, timid, bitter comment, made to hopefully get your superiors, the actual herd animals, to notice you.
Now lets look at the urine you have spilled in this thread.
The immediate thing that jumps out at one is the usage of the term ‘crafted’. Yes, it is actually crafted, for someone with the skills you have. I can almost see you with your cute pink tongue sticking out, your fur in mad disarray, licking the pencil tip.
While I’m so close to the bottom of your text, let me mention the last sentence before the post script.
I find it a delightful effort at sophisticated sarcasm. You completely missed, Lou’s magic talking ass, but what a wonderful, wonderful effort for someone with the challenges you face. Really, applause, applause.
As far as the post script itself, well, the bet you are referring to was rhetorical. If you wish to address my rhetoric, rather than the actual points I made, perhaps it would be better if you could loosen up that training bra just a squidge to let more blood to your brain, call in some help, preferably of the 7th grade level or higher, and see if you can’t at least be more creative in doing so.
Now, lets get to the meat substitute of your actual post, shall we?
The very first line is a simple statement that I cannot argue with- you are, in fact one of the responders in that thread. From this point on though, I’m afraid everything is viewpoint and your word on what you did, the same for the fact that you used a brain that you would have me believe that you are in posession of. And you may be in posession of a brain. But it’s not yours, and it’s external to your head, most likely in the refrigerator or a jar somewhere. Or perhaps one of those little vacuum packets one sees at the butcher shop, for god only knows what reason.
I won’t re-address the issue of your herd animal status nor your thinking/non-thinking status. Either one sees what I’ve plainly shown so far or not.
I do take issue with your statement that you had (laughing) crafted your response before you had seen any replies. It’s possible, given what hell you must have gone through to compose it, or possibly the time taken to perform the sexual favors you may have purchased it for, but I say to myself, ‘There are three posts before hers, two of them are long ones, making extensive use of quotes. Is she trying to say that she and the two preceding posters, one of which has two lengthy posts up before hers, all simul-posted?’
Well, Lmta, this could be so, I’ll not argue.
But you did see the op, and I thought it dripped a certain attitude, signalling the followers as to the ‘feeling’ of the responses expected. I assert that this was a type of ‘laying the ground rules’ and that this is a game with which you are familiar, as reflected in your posts.
No, it wasn’t necessary to play by these ground rules, as evidenced by some of the posts. But you, dear, played along in a magnificent froshy sort of way.
So, I’m afraid I must discount all your other statements.
But, I would like to address the one, I can’t describe how humorous I found it- like a 7th grader trying to be taken seriously, where you say you 'actually considered whether it (Doyles philosophy) had any value. Any value? Apparently not. Not the slightest arc of degree of value. So, I must assume you find no value in doing things that you might rather not do, for the sake of your spouses ego, to help him feel good about himself, to help the relationship. Now, at this point, I must ask you to actually read this thread, this one right here, in the presence of an adult. One who has made such compromises, one who has subsumed themselves from time to time for the sake of their relationship, one who has a better comprehension level than you have displayed. No where has inor said he thinks Ms. Doyle ought to be taken literally. No where has he said , in his piquant way, ‘Hey, why’nt you shut the fuck up and blow yer hubbies and swallow and other’n that, just cook, clean, work and hand the mnoney over to da man’.
No, no, no. He has said that a degree of that is good. And that to absolutely dismiss entirely this womans ideas is reactively reflexive, non-thinking, phobic, and yes, quite out of hand.
So, aside from the fact that you are blowing your spittle in the wrong direction and hitting nothing, you have, in fact, dismissed the work in question out of hand, by dismissing it entirely, and not allowing for the possibility of some degree or other of her principles to be valid for you.
They are simple principles, and while inor doesn’t agree with the degree to which she espouses them, you may read his feelings up above there, if you haven’t already done so-chaperoning adult mentioned before along to help you, please.
I’m afraid that’s all I have time for, there is another lamb to be slaughtered and it’s late,Babe.
Now, C3
inor first wants to say a little something to you.
Hey, shithead, you catch that reference to a dna-less biewpoint up above there? Well, I gotta retract that- i was getting at that you were somekinda virii, but I don’t guess you’d get an indirect jab like tht if you were. you’d at least need a notochord to process it. So, it was pointless, and I’ve done some re-considering and re-clasified you- look at your name there- to me, it kinda looks like the infant stage of certain coral species I’ve seen, I think they’re called polyps. anyway, so you’v ebeen upgradeed to the status of coral, k? not exactly a herd animal, more of a colony animal, but still pretty non-thinking, and I guess I can take some artisitc license.
Listen, corals magic talking waste vent, it’s late and I gotta be at work early, I’ll continue on this little evisceration fest later, k?
love and kisses and pound poiund pound
Heavens, inor, what’s all this? Did you get your hands on some of Wildest Bill’s Mexican fatburners? Are you just indulging in in a massive pit-wallow for fun? Do you really have that passionate a commitment to the sacred writings of La Doyle? Or did I just miss the general announcement that it’s open season on anyone who doesn’t kiss the ass you’re talking out of?
(Oh no, I’ve just declared myself in opposition to inor and therefore a non-thinking herd animal. Hmm, looks like I’m in good company. Save me some room in the trenches, C3 & featherlou; inor’s gonna be waving his pop-gun at me any minute)
Can you tell me, exactly, what makes you post what you did?
Dublos-
-wasn’t exactly the imagery I was going for, but I couldn’t think of a way to say 'nice, sharp, just-the-right-size-for-my-hands knives that I was good enough with to slice you who wish to engage me in battle on this, my long-thought-upon viewpoint, to see-through shreds.
Knew drawing knives sliced finely, so I used that. Sounded ominous, I thought and what they are used for was close enough for my purpose.
What I’m saying is I’ve thought upon this subject for a long time, Since way before I ever came to the boards, and have, while having been a male shithook in my time, been a victim of prejudice towards males in serious ways. I have and am trying to change the ways I think and act, but also see that this is shit- white males, males in general, have been on top for a long time in our society. In the backlash to correct that, there’r lots of small, every day joes that are suffering life-affecting insults, as bad as although often of a different nature then those that women and minorities have and do suffer.
I see it like this;
There exists an un-balance.
Instead of balancing, what many people seem to be doing is reacting from their thalamuses, and simply keeping things un-balanced, but on the other side.
Things aren’t fair for women and minorities. Well, in their rabid, reflexive, non-contributory way, many people are not helping matters by making it miserable for guys, in the main, white guys. And these aren’t the guys who make the rules, they’re the guys that are on the lower levels of things, the guys it’s easy to fuck with, the guys that don’t decide that you make less than they do, not the guys that don’t hire you, but the guys that you would have worked beside had you been the right color/sex and gotten the job. The guys that stop and give you a jump, not the guys that drive by talking on their cel phones in their Beemers.
I’m one of these little guys. I’ve got attitude, I have admitted it over and over. I’m also working on it, and have been for a long time. I’m tired of getting bashed, and while I think I bend quite a bit to listen, when I see the shit I saw in the other thread, excepting some of the responses, yes, I think it knee-jerk shit shitfrisbee tossing, and I’m tossing back, just with better aim. That’s not saying much, these dipshit brainless animals, by the definition of knee-jerk, reactive, reflexive, are not thinking- they are jsut emotionally parroting. It’s pretty easy to beat the shit right out of them. It’s also pretty useless- they’re so fucking stupid, they don’t even know when it’s happened. I’m gonna ask you right here, to re-read both threads, and then see which one you think contains more thoughtfulness, more reason, a more fostering kind of content. More substance. You don’t need to answer, you don’t even need to do it, it jsut might be an interesting excercise is all I’m saying.
I’ll admit when I get like this, it’s not very Martin Luther King of me, but I’m not nearly as bad as this other type of shithook is. I have put extensive thought into my position, I amend it when I see good reason, and I pass by many, many opportunities to engage in a fight about it.
In short, I think I’ve gone more towards answering lucies question in the answering of yours, although I think it fit pretty well in the answering of yours.
Still, you may kick my ass as you wish. I won’t hack back on you. These squits though, are another matter.
lucie again, can you tell me why you wrote what you did? If you’re looking for a fight, be very careful in what you say.
I mean, look at lucie’s post- g’wan, use a fucking scanning microscope- you see any substance there?
Lots of sarcasm, yeah, but anything you can really sink your teeth into?
Now look at my posts- sarcasm, substance and, not incidentely, real, live humor. None in theirs, although you can see the faint stirrings of some.
inor, I’m not looking to pick a fight with you, but (with all due respect) I think your anger may be, for the most part, misplaced.
The reason people are attacking Doyle is simple. Doyle makes some assumptions about relationships that we’ve agreed are bad. The post was in MPSIMS on a pop-culture self-help book–that implies that there is not going to be much in the way of substance or academic debate; rather, it is going to be fun and silly. After all the smooching, I’d hope you’d know that MPSIMS isn’t always the place to go for deep thought.
I personally try to give the people here (and IRL) the benefit of the doubt. I think most of you guys are very intelligent people (yes, inor, you too) and are not “herd animals” as described, though I will not dispute the existence of people meeting that description. Have you never said “Right on!” or words to that effect when someone says something that agrees with your position? I don’t believe this necessarily indicates mob mentality. To use myself as an example, before I posted to that thread, I read the article in question and even read a few reviews of the book at Amazon. My post replying to Cranky expounds upon the rest of my reasoning.
Doyle hangs such a giant bullseye around her neck–how can you not expect people to attack her? Anybody with more than half a brain knows that compromise and communication are important in healthy relationships. How many times have you heard this from far better sources? Maybe she does have a few good things to say, but do you really expect people to dig through piles of shit to find a few pearls when they already know where to find terrific pearls at low, low, discount prices?
IMHO, you are jumping to some conclusions here and possibly hurting some feelings (and/or making some enemies) in the process. Perhaps because I posted in the orignal thread I am inclined to feel this way, but I’ve tried to be objective as possible. If a few disinterested parties would like to take a look and comment… or maybe you don’t care. I know, it’s the pit, but I would hope that you do care, because these are real people you are talking to, not a faceless procession. I just thought I’d point this out to you for your own sake.
One other thing…
While I understand your position and why you’d bring this up, I must warn you that affirmative action is a bit of a hot button issue (do a search in GD if you must). You are really opening yourself up to attack on this point. (Not from me, but it’s a fair warning that you might take some serious heat for that. Bring it on, you say? Good luck… you might need it.)
Again, I have no desire to get into a fight here, just trying to prevent you from alienating people who you might like otherwise.
I ain’t tryin to be nasty here with you, but I’m supposed to allow generalizations of my sex/race/whatever while not whispering a word about it, or those that make such generalizations? I mean, even goddam orientation, for christs sake- how many threads you see about some aspect or other of homophobia? K, that’s great, I don’t wanna stand in the way of that- gotta be hard, at times, to be gay. But sometimes, I get so fucking sick of it, I wanna start a thread about heterophobia- and what would happen then? Yup, it’s so goddam forign a thougth to most people, I hadda make up a term to describe it- you jsut aren’t allowed to think that way.
No.
I know that many of these people ain’t what I make them out to be, you’re right. But, when somebody (yes, she goes overboard, but again, the basic idea isn’t so bad, especially when you see that she gets results, qualifies it with choosing the right guy, and that it becomes a two way street) attacks somebody else for essentially saying, hay, try being nice, and the person they’re saying ‘hey, be nice’ about is someone like me, well, I’m gonna do a little cutting sometimes. If that makes me an enemy of someone who thinks they are free to bash me/mine, while I am in no way allowed to retaliate, then fuck 'em. I’d use terrorist tactics if I had to to keep them from buying property next to me. Got no use for 'em. I mean I swear, in their way, they’re worse than the crassest whore working the bad parts of Vegas.
Imean, shit, taking all that I’ve said so far into account, that no, I think she’s extreme, but if it works, why not? and so on, is it so fucking hard to be nice to a guy? Is it so fucking undesirable? (Not whining, just expressing disgust)
By saying it works, by saying it transformed her flagging relationship as dramatically as it did, well, that’s what does it for me. It worked, period. So, you gonna let some goddam sense of what you think is right/overblown pride stand in the way of a good relationship?
There’s ideals, and then there’s real life, and oft the two don’t coincide. And for you pinheads out there, I’m talking about the smaller/medium/prideful things, that still might be very hard, not the things like compromising your belief that you are a worthy human being, and giving in to someone who would have you believe otherwise. (seems i gotta be simple and repititive with these mooers)
I mean, shit, look at the posts here from the opponents- they’re all smug, offer basically nothing except a feeling of righteousness. Why? Because they are arguing the fucking oh so pc side of things. They know a person is gonna get their ass chewed off by being in the minority, being a different opinion on this type of issue, so it’s been so long since they’ve had to back up their arguments with anything meaningful, anything original, they didn’t even bother, in this thread, or the other. Just some snideness and bitching. The closest any of em has come is lou, saying she gave it a gret deal of thought. but she doens’t expound- we’re jsut supposed to take her fucking word, and take it on faith that she is authority or some fucking shit.
To boot, as I expected, they aren’t really reading or takin gthe time to think about what I’m saying, and it shows in their posts- again, I’m opposition on this, I’m an allowed target, they don’t have to put in any effort on it, jsut throw some knives, have some fun cuttin on any stupid man who would dare suggest they aren’t so goddamm beautiful, desirable, right-thinking, strong, independent, correct, their-pussy-don’t-smell, whatever the hell they think they are. I’m not in agreement with the accepted (In my opinion, often un-thinkingly) viewpoint- * I’m easy meat*. And that’s all it is for lots of this- someone they acan rip on, and not pay any consequences.
Fuck that and fuck them.
Any of em want to cme in here, say ‘hey, i’ve thought about it, truly, what you wrote, the other thread, the article, what it promotes, etc, and I think I see what you’re saying, and I agree here, disagree here etc’, then they’ll get treated like humans. That’s already happened with everyone who has done so in this thread. To those fucking herd animals though, well, a herd animal, when it’s coming in contact with a human, is, mostly, at some point gonna get butchered.
And I ain’t bringing up Affirmative action- I was saying hey, this type of guy, the guy you would work with instead of for, those’r the ones your hurting, because they’ve got no power, really. You ain’t hurting the ones who are actually standing in your way by this spitting rave.
Maybe I missed it, but I really didn’t see the generalizations you were referring to. I understand you think that there was some male-bashing going on, but being a white male myself, I didn’t see anything in this thread or the original one that offended me. The way I’ve interpreted the criticism is that the women here believe it’s appropriate to respect a man and not pick on every little fault, but they won’t submit to the extent of absolute surrender (“honey, you always know best”). I don’t think I’ve seen anything to counter this belief, and it seems you agree with this.
Maybe I missed it, but I really didn’t see the generalizations you were referring to. I understand you think that there was some male-bashing going on, but being a white male myself, I didn’t see anything in this thread or the original one that offended me. The way I’ve interpreted the criticism is that the women here believe it’s appropriate to respect a man and not pick on every little fault, but they won’t submit to the extent of absolute surrender (“honey, you always know best”). I don’t think I’ve seen anything to counter this belief, and it seems you agree with this.
K, I guess I’m being unclear.
I don’t think there’s much, if any male bashing going on in tht thread, but I have seen many other threads where it has. That’s what I’m referring to, along with out in RL, where comedians do it, magazines do it, movies do it, people do it. Often times it’s couched as humor, or gently, but it’s done. And I’m saying it seems to be the rage to do so- it’s allowed, it’s all the fashion (in fact, I even made up a term for this kind of thing- fashion bashin), it’s accepted. Now, see what happens when you gently say to someone with whom you are not a peer or a member of their particular group, ‘hey nigger’, or ‘hey, faggot’, or ‘hey, you fat cow’, or ‘hey, you uppity bitch’.
FTR, I wouldn’t use any of these terms myself, unless invited to do so, well, except uppity bitch- I’ve used tht term in a teasing way to lovers now and then, and been called worse in return, but again, in a teasing way.
Anyway, by my second post, I had enlarged what i was talking about to male generalizations, which is the reason-behind-the-reason I started this thread- the stuff going on in the other thread I see as just a specialized adjunct of this other category. Now, before I am misunderstood again, I don not mean that women sticking up for themselves is mlae bashing, although male bashing can and often is a component of women sticking up for themelves and I understand that, it’s a fight after all, and I’ve admitted elsewhere that I use any nasty thing I think will work in a fight.
My big issue with that thread though is that I consider it fashion bashin- it’s done without much thought, it’s done pretty much out of hand, as a reflex. And I stand by that.
Again with the qualifier for the pinheads- no, I’m not talking about all the posts oveer there, and while some of the non-thinking posts do ahve some thought in them, they also contain fashion bashin- I don’t mean to categorize the posts strictly black or white.
I gues my biggest piss off is this:
People pick a target. If enough people agree on that target, the shit starts flying, flung, more often than not, by people who couldn’t think for themselves if you put a gun to their head- they are little shitty herd animal cowards, never done anything significant, anything that personally cost them, to support the viewpoint they are using as an excuse to fling shit, they jsut like to bash.
Historically these targets have been gays, blacks, women, jews, Irish, Japanese, Chinese, Mexicans, (American) Indians, Fat people, whatever. Currently the biggest one is males, especially white males.
We’re pigs, oppressors, sexual boors, narrow-minded, stupid, insensitive, assholes, selfish, holding-all-these-other-groups-back, The Man, eetc.
And it’s all true.
But, so are these other groups. Many people, including myself up until some years ago, seem to think that a member of some group or other which is being ripped off in some wy or other or harassed in some way is automatically some kind of saitn, more empathetic and understnding and somehow better tahn a member of the group doing the harassing or ripping off.
And that’s not true.
All those groups above have faced hard times at the hands of other groups.
All thos egroups got theie assholes. Big, nasty assholes. They all, or members of them, ahve shit on others for the same reasons that white, heterosexual males have shit on them.
Japs have shot on chinks, who shit back and shit on others, both ahve been shit on by whites, and Americans in general, and white males in particular, slender people have shit on fat people, who have in turn shit on slender people, or indians, or mexicans, who have shit on women and each other, women have shit on men, and men have shit on women and everybody has shit on the jews and gays, and they’ve shit back etc, ad infinitum.
So, here’s something I hate- the group doing the shitting, especially if it falls under the category of fashion bashin, acts like it’s beyond reproach, and by fucking god don’t dare question any of it’s tenets, and lord help you if you do, or gasp put forth anyting contradictory.
For othe most part, thats what I see ove in that other thread, and wht I see in the opposing posts in this one- like I said beofre, their positions is so goddam unassailable, so fucking right, so pure and whtever, they don’t even bother to put up a substantial argument. In a minute, I’m gonna address C3s second post, maybe that’ll illustrate what I’m trying to say here a little. But ther’sa glaring example of it in lou’s reply to my post ripping on her- did she address anythingn I had to say? Did I put a lot of thought and work and creativity and even some humor in what I said to her? yup. Look at what she oh-so-superiorly diegns to reply with- is that good, thoughtful riposte, or jsut snide, dipshitty assholery.
One fucking psuedo-superior sentence.
You tell me- seems she is doing the very thing I’m talking about- I’m so goddam wrong, she knows she’s on the safe side of things, whether she’s actually done anyting personally costly for her viewpoint or not, she’s on the safe side of things. I oppose not the viewpoint, necessarily, but the mindless involvement of many expressing it, so I amd ont worthy, I am safe to dismiss like she did. (which, btw, lou, didn’t work- moo, baby)
Now, do I set myself apart from this type of behavior?
Nope- Look at Corrado’s Jesus or janet thread- I’m in there on the first 2 pages, having a blast. While I’d like to say that it may be a little different in that this type of fundy, when taken as a group, might exhibit an overall intelligence level than men, as a group, and that I have suffered for my viewpoints in this area, I haven’t jsut copied them from othe people who make fun of fundies, those are kind of pettifoggin arguments- I’m still fashion bashin. Still making fun of a group as a whole, regardless of it’s individual members, without qualifying myself- wait a minute- yes I did qualify myself- I don’t remember to whom, but ther’es a qualifier in that thread…so it’s not strictly as bad as this I’m talking about here…
So, why this thread?
Because I can, that’s why- I don’t like it when I’m on the recieving end, and neither does anyone else. We’re all human, they bitch, I bitch. In this case though, i am using more intelligence, creativity, and humor to do so.
So you’re right, Blue- the only generalizations going on here are the implied ones, (pretty big- men are such worthless hunks, don’t you dare even suggest we be nice to them, we are clearly superior to them, etc., if you see what I’m getting at) and the one in which Doyle’s advice is dismissed out of hand.
And here it is late again, I’ve go tstuff I’ve gotta do today, and I still ain’t gotten back to C3- so I guess I’ll have to come back to this lil melerdramer later.
I just know you’re rubbing yourself waiting for my attentions again, C3, so keep rubbing that little button of yours just a while longer, ok, sweetie?
