Falcon and the Winter Soldier (Spoilers)

I think creators (as seen with show canon in various series) make mistakes in wanting to keep things nebulous or feeling constrained to tell the story they want to tell. There’s nothing wrong with wading in a universes rich world-building.

We don’t even know if there’s an Avengers anymore!!

I don’t see how you can reconcile a:

Friendly neighborhood Spiderman

The fight at the airport (How does that violate international accords? its just a donnybrook between superheroes) and i felt the reason Scott and Clint got deals because the govt. didn’t want to test it in court.

Sharon?? She’s not even super-powered.

We may get more solid answers with Thunderbolts.

“The Dora Milaje have jurisdiction wherever the Dora Milaje find themselves to be.”

Which is not good international foreign policy and ethically questionable, etc. But it is a badass line.

I’m not sure what’s not reconcilable about these three things?

Sure. Also a tough position for a representative of the American government to take offence over, American history being what it is.

Since you mentioned it (sorta) …lets get meta. A little.

In show the showrunners have made a point of having Walker:

Have a black partner

The dude who talked to him in the locker room was black. (I don’t remember if that WAS Battlestar)

His wife is black

Im guessing his high school was majority black.

Is the showrunner trying to make a point that “No Walker isnt a white supremacist. He’s as much of a victim as any other soldier,”…or that black people are complicit in holding up the status quo also?

That was the same dude, yes.

I thought basically the Accords were no unauthorized super-powered arrests. Also a secret identity would be a no-go cause you could be set-up or deny it was you.

Sharon isnt Super-powered.
Peter doesn’t seem to seek authorization for NYC patrolling.
And im still a little unclear how a fight between super-heroes violates the Accords.

The point of the accords was to prevent people with super powers from acting on their own initiative without UN oversight. Steve and his group refused to sign on, and decided to try to resolve the whole Winder Soldier/Zemo thing on their own - which put them in violation of the accords. The fight at the airport was Tony’s Accord-compliant team trying to arrest Steve’s non-compliant team.

Spider-Man was team compliance. Evidently, this included him getting permission to continue fight street-level crime after the events of Civil War. While “no secret identities” would make sense for this sort of law (and was part of the similar law in the comic version of this story) it’s never explicitly identified as a requirement in the MCU. At any rate, Stark - and, later, Fury - both know Spider-Man’s real identity.

Sharon was team non-compliance, and broke a whole bunch of federal laws when she helped Cap in Civil War. Possibly some of those laws were from the Accords, under some sort of “aiding-and-abetting” clause, but she also did enough stuff to have the US government lock her away for a very long time under the normal rules they wrote for normal humans.

Lol…someone must have really stood up for Scott Lang, cause Hawkeye is a fucking HERO. But Ant-Man is the kind of guy you just make an example of.

In fact, Ayo is just voicing the justification of every country that has engaged in covert paramilitary action on foreign soil. Given that the powers that be allowed the assassin of their leader (along with dozens of other people) escape custody, she kind of has a point. And aside from that, the New Cap is essentially exerting the same extrajudicial ‘authority’ to arrest Karli and the other Flag Smashers.

Civil War didn’t detail out the provisions of the Accords (thankfully, given that it appears to be the size of the Oxford English Dictionary) but it seems clear that they essentially provide the United Nations plenary authority over any superpowered or ‘highly capable’ individuals including unenhanced people like Clint Barton and Natasha Romanoff, including restricting them to house arrest or forcing them to take part in an authorized action. Again, there is a lot of ‘just below the surface’ authoritarianism in the MCU. As for the larger world, this story is clearly focused on the perspective of Sam and Bucky. This isn’t the kind of cosmic threat that the Avengers generally focus upon.


Sam had ahead of the fight. Explicitly warning him that he be better off fighting Bucky than Ayo.

He is a powered individual whose “bad things” include a vicious murder within a short time of becoming powered.

Plan schplan … that’s a villain. Again one with some complexity and who we can have some empathy for. Not Walter White level but hey.

Somebody (May have been you!) mentioned that having Carli murder someone before Falcons convo was a big mistake and i agree.

Everytime the show asks me to sympathize with her…Im reminded that she tied people up and let them burn to death.

Heh. But Falcon doesn’t really get upset until she calls his sister.

I don’t think that’s right - he’s working with the Global Repatriation Council, and gets to ride in their fancy police vans on his raids against soup kitchens. Presumably, the GRC is a legitimate (if possibly corrupt) international agency that’s working with the cooperation of the local governments. Part of Karli’s beef is that the old national borders are being reasserted, and she views Walker as part of that movement, so it seems likely that his actions have official approval.

And no wonder. Can you imagine trying to define “stuff that happens in superhero comics” without the explicit knowledge that you live in a superhero comic? You try to write a law that covers everything from battle suits to shrink tech to Uru hammers to genetic modification to self-aware robots to literal fucking magic, and that will apply to any random weird-ass shit that might crop up in the future that you never considered (“They’re Eternals? What the fuck is an Eternal?!”) and see if you can do it in less than the length of any three Stephen King novels.

He was previously working with them. But in the last episode, he and Hoskins have a conversation about needing to quietly follow a lead on their own. In this episode, they’re working independently, no GRC resources in sight. His current operational legitimacy is ambiguous. No doubt if he had gotten results in a quick and clean fashion, his handlers would have found a way to whitewash this period; but public cell-phone video where you beat someone into hamburger will make that challenging.

I didn’t see it as Sam sympathizing with Karli. Killing her outright or even bringing her in in handcuffs in a big public scene turns her into a martyr for the cause (a different kind than Mama Donya - who died through inactivity and neglect, which is bad enough. Karli would be a martyr due to direct action.) Currently, the Flag Smashers have a single leader who coordinates small, precise attacks. Killing Karli would have turned that into global chaos from her followers - something Sam didn’t want. Had their dialog gone forward, it might have been possible to quell the violence (and possibly to do something about the displaced people).

Of course, now that Walker lost his shit, they’ve got the martyr and the flag-smasher followers worldwide (which the news pointed out there were a lot of) may respond with additional violence.

I took that scene to be Walker talking about Sam/Bucky - getting all the leads from following (literally) them.

Near the end of the last episode, did anybody else have a “Oh! Yeah, Sam can actually fly” moment?

And it’s even more muddied if we accept the comic book explanation that Cap himself (and by extension the other super soldiers) isn’t “super powered” but just the perfect physical human specimen, the maximization of human potential.

It would have also been nice if someone has pointed out… “You’re talking about jurisdiction? “Captain America”? Here, in Latvia?”

I assume that “Accord-approved missions” means they have jurisdiction in all countries that signed.