Family booted from Southwest flight

In My Humble Opinion
1

I heard on CNN a little bit ago about a family flying on Southwest Airlines who were to change planes in Phoenix for their flight home to Seattle. They were told that they were not allowed to board the flight because they couldn’t control their children. From what I heard (I’m in my ‘office’ and can only hear the TV) the shildren were exceptionally noisy and were running up and down the aisle. The flight attendants told the mother and grandmother to keep the noise down and to keep the children in their seats, but it seems they didn’t do it.

I did catch a glimpse of the kids as I walked by the TV at one point, and they appeared to be between three and five years old. My mom once told me that I was able to follow instructions when I was that age, so I am going to assume poor parenting on the passenger’s part.

IMO SWA were correct to boot them. It cost them $2,000 to get a flight on another airline. That’s too bad, but perhaps it will serve as a lesson. But probably not. They’re demanding an apology from SWA, so they obviously think they did nothing wrong.

2

They certainly don’t deserve an apology. I hope Southwest will stand by their decision on this one.

(I wonder if the ticket price with the other airline was before or after this story broke?)

3

I think Southwest did the right thing. I’m glad the family got an expensive lesson.

4

SWA should not only refuse to issue an apology, but make this the centerpiece of their new commercials:

“Not only cheap fares, but you won’t have to put up with noisy kids, either!”

SWA has the Feds on their side, so they can hang tough on this one.

5

I just watched the video on CNN. I will admit to an immediate bias in favor of the airline based on 1. my experiences in the extreme unpleasantness of being trapped with unruly children, and 2. those are some exceptionally trashy-looking people.

There’s no reason at all that it should be difficult to keep your kids in their seats on an airplane. Provided that you ever drive with them, they should be very familiar with the concept of being strapped in a seat. Do they let them get out of their carseats and jump around in the car?

It’s not that hard to keep your kids under control, provided that you *make a habit * of keeping your kids under control. You can’t let them do whatever the hell they want as a rule, and then expect them to develop a sudden respect for your authority when you really *need * them to sit down and shut up.

6

Story here

The airline is not obligated to fly you anywhere. You play by their rules.

I know a family that got booted off an Airline Airlines plane because their teenaged son wouldn’t turn off his CD player. They threatened to sue, and the airline said “Go ahead.” Turns out they did not have a case.

7

Annie-Xmas: Thank you for the link.

Some relevant bits:

8

The story says one kid is autistic and another has cerebral palsy, but doesn’t say if those were the unruly kids…

9

Maybe they were just too pretty to fly?

10

I was 100% behind SWA on this, until I saw the part about the childrens’ disabilities.

Bearing in mind the fairly serious disabilities of two of the children, I think the airline may have had *some * obligation to work with the situation due to the Americans with Disabilities Act. I don’t think the ADA in any way trumps the safety of the flight, but maybe it does open the door to requiring the airline to work with the mother to control the children, not just tell her to control the children or else. For example, maybe the airline should have allowed them to reschedule after letting the children get rested, calmed down, and fed, or some other reasonable accommodation could be found.

God help me if I ever had to transport 4 kids, 2 of them seriously disabled, across the country.

11

Yikes. On the one hand, I bristle whenever I hear people painting parents traveling with kids with a broad brush and assuming they’re easy to control as long as the parents aren’t crappy parents. It doesn’t help that a couple of them may have had disabilities.

On the other hand, the airline seems perfectly within their rights to a) make sure that other passengers’ flights are comfortable and peaceful (and safe) as possible and b) to choose not to shuttle obnoxious people around to the detriment of their other passengers.

Having traveled with a disruptive child, I know how difficult it is to reason with a toddler and I have been what my mom would have described as “one of those people.” That said, at the time, I just pulled him into my lap and physically restrained him when he was attempting to get away. He was howling and upset and eventually passed out from crying, which I’m betting was pretty annoying to everyone else (and it made me feel like crap for a couple of reasons), but there was no way that I’d just let him run around an airline while the crew was trying to get everyone ready for takeoff. I’d say the airline wins in this case - no apology or compensation needed.

12

[QUOTE=overlyverbose]
Having traveled with a disruptive child, I know how difficult it is to reason with a toddler and I have been what my mom would have described as “one of those people.” That said, at the time, I just pulled him into my lap and physically restrained him when he was attempting to get away. He was howling and upset and eventually passed out from crying, which I’m betting was pretty annoying to everyone else (and it made me feel like crap for a couple of reasons), but there was no way that I’d just let him run around an airline while the crew was trying to get everyone ready for takeoff.
[/QUOTE]

Honestly, toddlers aren’t to be reasoned with. They’re to be handled. I mean, it’s certainly *nice * if you can get them to sit still just by telling them to, but if you can’t, you physically restrain them. That’s why they invented things like harnesses and carseats and strollers. You did the only thing you could do.

I don’t love the idea of traveling with a crying child, but kids cry. I don’t expect anyone to be able to stop a child crying.

I DO expect them to stop a child from running around the airplane.

13

[QUOTE=Harriet the Spry]
I was 100% behind SWA on this, until I saw the part about the childrens’ disabilities.

Bearing in mind the fairly serious disabilities of two of the children, I think the airline may have had *some * obligation to work with the situation due to the Americans with Disabilities Act. I don’t think the ADA in any way trumps the safety of the flight, but maybe it does open the door to requiring the airline to work with the mother to control the children, not just tell her to control the children or else. For example, maybe the airline should have allowed them to reschedule after letting the children get rested, calmed down, and fed, or some other reasonable accommodation could be found.

God help me if I ever had to transport 4 kids, 2 of them seriously disabled, across the country.
[/QUOTE]

If I recall correctly, the ADA doesn’t exactly apply to air travel. However, here’s something that does definitely apply, from the Department of Transportation:

[quote=]
§ 382.31 Refusal of transportation.

(a) Unless specifically permitted by a provision of this part, a carrier shall not refuse to provide transportation to a qualified individual with a disability on the basis of his or her disability.

(b) A carrier shall not refuse to provide transportation to a qualified individual with a disability solely because the person’s disability results in appearance or involuntary behavior that may offend, annoy, or inconvenience crewmembers or other passengers.

(c) A carrier shall not refuse to provide transportation to qualified individuals with a disability by limiting the number of such persons who are permitted to travel on a given flight.

** (d) Carrier personnel, as authorized by 49U.S.C. 44902, 14 CFR 91.8, or 14 CFR 121.533, may refuse to provide transportation to any passenger on the basis of safety, and may refuse to provide transportation to any passenger whose carriage would violate the Federal Aviation Regulations. In exercising this authority, carrier personnel shall not discriminate against any qualified individual with a disability on the basis of disability and their actions shall not be inconsistent with the provisions of this Part. In the event that such action is inconsistent with the provisions of this Part, the carrier shall be subject to remedies provided under §382.65.**

(e) When a carrier refuses to provide transportation to any person on a basis relating to the individual’s disability, the carrier shall specify in writing to the person the basis for the refusal, including, where applicable, the reasonable and specific basis for the carrier’s opinion that transporting the person would or might be inimical to the safety of the flight. This written explanation shall be provided within 10 calendar days of the refusal of transportation.

[/quote]

Bolding mine, available along with lots of other stuff here. So if the kids were up and running around on the plane, that’s easily a safety issue and the airline was in the right for kicking them off.

14

I do have sympathy for parents with disabled children. but the article doesn’t say that the disabled children were the ones causing the ruckus. And some of the children were running in the aisles. The aisles have ben very narrow on the airplanes I’ve been on in the last several years, and it’s often difficult for adults who are trying to be careful to get through them with out bumping other passengers. A running child isn’t going to be so careful. At the very least the mother and sister (as identified in the article – I thought she was a grandmother) could have kept the kids strapped in.

As for the noise, if a child is old enough to talk, he’s old enough to be told to be quiet. When I was noisy as a kid my parents didn’t ask me to be quiet. I was told. I was very, very rarely spanked; but I did get the ‘You stop crying, or I’ll give you something to cry about!’ Children are not ‘little adults’. They have to be taught what is appropriate and what isn’t. (Says the childless guy.)

A larger issue is that adults often do not seem capable of following instructions. Personally I think that the Fasten Seat Belts sign is turned on when there’s really no need. But as a pilot I’ve hit unexpected turbulence and know that things (bodies) can become airborne in the cabin. I’m not in the cockpit, so I don’t have the information the pilots have. Neither do the other passengers, and I think I know at least a little more about flying than a lot of people. (Not to sound arrogant, but I do have a license and I’d bet money most passengers don’t. It’s just a matter of training.) People have trouble even getting on a plane. It’s really simple. Put your bag in the bin, stand at your seat, and bend in the middle.

15

Good for SWA. unfortunately, the mother wasn’t taught a lesson, because if she was, she’d be apologizing for her childrens’ behaviour instead of trying to justify it. Her children are never bad, there should be allowances made.

Yesterday at Mass I was sitting behind a family with six kids. The oldest was about 8 or 9. Even the baby, who was at about the 4-teeth stage, was well-behaved. And when the baby started making noise, the mother shushed her. The oldest quietly took her younger sister to the bathroom (both properly genuflecting as they left the pew) and returned promptly. It was obvious that the parents had taught them how to behave in public.

StG

16

[QUOTE=NinjaChick]
If I recall correctly, the ADA doesn’t exactly apply to air travel. However, here’s something that does definitely apply, from the Department of Transportation:

Bolding mine, available along with lots of other stuff here. So if the kids were up and running around on the plane, that’s easily a safety issue and the airline was in the right for kicking them off.
[/QUOTE]

You’re right, the ADA doesn’t apply to air travel. My bad. But there is similar legislation. Apparently the air travel version of the ADA is the Air Carrier Access Rules, which specifically state “Carriers must provide passage to an individual who has a disability that may affect his or her appearance or involuntary behavior, even if this disability may offend, annoy, or be an inconvenience to crew-members or other passengers.”

They do also say this “The carrier may refuse transportation if the individual with a disability would endanger the health or safety of other passengers, or transporting the person would be a violation of FAA safety rules.”

From here - http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/publications/horizons.htm

So it seems to come down to whether it is an issue of safety or one of convenience. I agree that kids running in the aisles is unsafe, but it’s not like they kick the family off every time it happens, either. I’m guessing it’s headaches all around at SWA legal.

17

I think “Interfering with the flight crew” trumps everything else. SWA just has to hang tough with that and the rest is meaningless here.

18

[QUOTE=StGermain]
.And when the baby started making noise, the mother shushed her. The oldest quietly took her younger sister to the bathroom (both properly genuflecting as they left the pew) and returned promptly. It was obvious that the parents had taught them how to behave in public.

[/QUOTE]

You just caught them on a good day.
My 2 year-old can be a saint or a demon. When he behaves and is content he’s very quiet and happy. If we’re out and about people will even comment on how well behaved he is. I usually respond with “Yeah, well, you’ve just caught him on a good day.”
When he’s over tired he can go into a tirade at the drop of a hat. I can restrain him all you like but it’s not going to stop his ear-splitting screams. No amount of parenting is going to keep a toddler from having melt downs.

The parents in this case should chalk it up to “we hoped they could get through the flight without issue but today they just weren’t having it. Hopefully we can catch a later flight when they have calmed down and not disturb anyone.”
And the airline should have helped them get a later flight.

19

I’ve seen a lot of this stories being publicized lately, i think the idea is to cause outrage on behalf of the parents but the response is always “good on ya airlines!”. Not just here but on the comments left on the stories themselves so its not just a SD anomaly.

20

[QUOTE=Hampshire]
I can restrain him all you like but it’s not going to stop his ear-splitting screams. No amount of parenting is going to keep a toddler from having melt downs.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed, but they weren’t thrown off of the flight because of the noise. It was the *running around the airplane * that got them thrown off the flight.