Hoping I have the purpose of this thread right, but as I said in this thread, I find the extended back and forth today (December 2) there darkly amusing, given the two posters involved, the meat of their current discussion, and their established politics and beliefs.
Might just be me, though.
I’m a “moderate leftist” by most people’s standards, but a “liberal ghoul” by the standards of leftists. Their position is based on several standard leftist assumptions; capitalism is the most evil system in the world, fascism = capitalism, America is the most capitalistic (and thus most evil) place in the world, so therefore America under fascism will be an only slightly exaggerated version of what it is not instead of radically different. Note for example how they keep insisting that under fascism the rich will run everything and how it’ll be all about profit.
I’m beginning to think that’s an astute observation. Maybe that’s why self-professed anti-fascist (mask-wearer, anyway) Smapti is so hell bent on insisting things won’t actually be that much different under Trump in the Leopards Eating Faces thread. Because if you’ve deluded yourself into thinking America is already just about as bad as it can be, how could it possibly get (that much) worse?
Oh, is that what he’s saying now? Before I disengaged, he was actually agreeing with me (to an extent) that I (at least on my part) was less interested in wallowing and more interested in figuring out what to do next. I was a little tired of folks, on this board and elsewhere, trying to actively convince me to give up and die when I doubt they’re living their lives as though they really had zero hope for a normal future.
I wouldn’t call any of those “standard leftist assumptions”.
Agreed. I’ve yet to meet the leftist who explicitly says that capitalism is worse than, say, Nazism. Leftists in capitalist countries tend to critique capitalism for the same reason that activists in Flint critique lead in the water.
I see a “no true leftist” fallacy here. IOW, what passes for the left in the USA is so far right that they don’t even know what leftism really is. And posters such as kropotkin and Der-Trihs consider themselves (almost) the only actual leftists in the crowd here on the Dope.
The former does not follow from the latter. I’m 66. I expect we’ll be dealing with the Fascists until my death of natural causes 20+ years from now. We’ll be dealing with the consequences of having had at least 4 years of Fascist government for another century. Although most of that time I won’t be around to worry about it.
None of which means my own life will become unlivable. Unless I get arrested and tortured to death by the new Gestapo by whatever name. The same applies to you.
Had Hitler not foolishly started WWII, most Germans would have lived out their entire lives growing up, going to work, getting married, having kids, etc., more or less normally. It’s what’s happening right now with the vast majority of people in Iran, Russia, Turkey, Hungary, etc. The USA will just add 350M people to the very long list of humans living under shitty asshole regimes.
Is reality less nice than it would have been absent the Fascists? Sure. Is it going to be unlivable? Hell no.
One can choose to catastrophize themselves into extreme depression. IMO that’s unnecessary and unhelpful. Don’t do it.
Yeah, for several months prior to the election, i comforted myself with the knowledge that hundreds of millions of people have lived basically normal lives under various fascist dictatorships and other unpleasant governments. (And billions have lived in situations that are probably worse than mine will be.)
In case I wasn’t clear, I was referring to my annoyance and frustration over people who literally and repeatedly argue with emphasis that “it’s over,” where “it” is American democracy or current human civilization. Besides, I think I have a right to be sensitive to the possibility of losing the quality of life I’ve built the past few years, financially and otherwise. But that’s kind of a side point. Like I said, I was speaking literally about specific people, not just a general sense of things getting worse.
I’m going to make a minor counterpoint. NOTE first, that I do NOT consider these anywhere within the realm of “standard leftist assumptions” but there is a set of fringe believers on almost any political or social belief that if you’re minorly supporting, allowing, or even not speaking out against XYZ
I’m going to make the most minor counterpoint, please note though that in no way do I consider this “standard leftist assumptions” either.
But there’s almost always a fringe group on any particular political or social concept that argues that supporting, allowing, or even NOT speaking up against policy XYZ is the same as supporting it’s evils. There are people, who ascribe to such extremism, that likely would say that Capitalism is worse than Nazism because it “allows” the evils of capitalism to exist and prosper when something more obviously evil would be instinctively rejected.
And considering the “left” in the US includes Bernie’s Socialists (which are apparently still weaksauce compared to the rest of the world, but hey, looking at South Korea, Europe and the US along with others, we’re all moving RIGHT) there are those that probably do, honestly, think that Capitalism, especially the version virulent in the US where the rich and their cronies in politics (to the extent that there is a difference) are buying the SCOTUS and daring the government and courts to do anything about it is VERIFIABLY worse than a hypothetical fascist government.
I do not for a moment agree, because I can look at my family history and see how all the branches that didn’t get out of Europe prior to WW2 are just gone, whether missing or known to be dead, but sometimes people get so focused on the immediate enemy/target that they assume it’s the worst of all possible worlds.
Not that I’m very happy with this branch of the timeline. No siree.
Another thing is that in the US, what matters more is what state or even town you live in. That will have a bigger impact on the average American’s daily life than whatever the federal government is doing.
I love my state and our local election results have given me some comfort this election.
This too. I’ve lived through some really bad situations. My life now is amazing compared to what I suffered when I was younger. Whatever is coming the next few years will be peanuts compared to that.
I mean, I’m a Jew, and i have a lot of friends who are members of various sexual minorities. Things could get really bad. But I’m hopeful they won’t.
Hi, I am one of the ones who has predicting doom and the end of American Democracy. If there is a reason all of us should not be extremely worried and terrified, I have yet to see it.
Trump and a bunch of others ran on a platform of ‘I will magically fix the economy’ and hatred. And most voters ate it up.
It’s because Trump doesn’t have the magic powers that many people seem to assume he does (including Trump himself and many of his followers).
You can drive yourself crazy with paranoia but that doesn’t seem healthy.
I don’t think anyone here is saying that we shouldn’t be extremely worried and terrified. I for one am the first at a minimum, with bouts of the latter.
This… doesn’t comfort me. Oh, not that you’re wrong @Atamasama - but Trump’s belligerent attitude and wide ( excuse me while I’m nauseated 
) support means he’s completely comfortable breaking the system to get what he wants. And there is at least a 50/50 chance a sufficient percentage of the legislature and courts will let him get away with it.
So, I think most of the recent thread comments are along the line of hoping for the best since there’s not much more we can do as individuals to prevent the worst. I know almost all here with the financial resources have been donating to the ACLU, Planned Parenthood, etc (as have my wife and I), and many explicitly worked on getting out the vote as well as other steps. But at a certain point, a Democracy is made of it’s people. And a lot of -people- as @DocCathode rightly described, ate up the barely-concealed (or not at all) hate and scapegoating and asked “Please sir, can I have some more?”.
I think, because the board definitely skews older, that while not precisely surrendering, a lot feel that they’ll be dead and gone IF the Right moves slowly. Which is not a given. But short of an armed uprising or out-and-out terrorist activity (which I’m not advocating right now) there still isn’t much we can do personally again. So watch what is happening, help where we can, but don’t destroy our own minds and health by clutching the worries close is probably as healthy a response as possible.
Back to the actual spark for the discussion though - @Der_Trihs is closer to the doomsday scenario than I am, but, to continue the betting metaphor, I won’t say they’re outside the spread. Banquet_Bear has come up in this thread before, but I still believe their heart is in the right place. Still, they always root for the underdog, and have a wider range of moral equality than I grant. So yeah, their levels of equivalence do not jive fully with mine. Sometimes to the extent that it feels to me that they’re arguing from the basis of how things should be, rather than how they are. I can respect the desire for moral absolutes, but I’ve never seen such a thing happen in my lifetime, nor do I expect to see it before I drop dead.
And I have yet to see a good reason to react and do things that assumes the worst will come: quit jobs, pull kids out of school, buy guns and seeds. As said in a post above, individuals may not be able to change events, but they can definitely react to them. Preppers, for example, definitely do.
But as I said before, I think very few people are going to uproot their lives and truly live like the next few years will destroy their status quo. I think that’s both good and significant.
In my experience they claim that Nazism and capitalism are the same thing.
That is, however, what “left” is in the USA. It’s a relative term. It always has been. There is no “what leftism “really” is” except in a relative sense.
And do even (most) people in relatively further left countries such as, say, parts of Europe claim that fascism is the same as capitalism, that America is the most evil place in the world, and that a fully fascist America would be no different for the rest of the world than an America in which the (granted, very centrist) Democrats had been the ones who just won the trifecta?
It’s going to be unlivable for some people. How many is still unclear.
How many depends not only on the fascism issue, but also on the climate change denial issue.
I agree with that part. Even a terrible situation can be worse. If the people who might make it better succumb to the counsels of despair, then it will be worse. If enough such people keep trying, then it’ll be at least somewhat better.
Well, yeah. There are definitely some people saying such things. I’m not denying that; I’m just denying that those are “standard leftist assumptions.”
Buying seeds is actually probably a good idea, if you’ve got even a few pots to grow them in. I suspect produce prices are going to go up and availablity of some things may become intermittent.
I wouldn’t quit jobs or pull kids out of school unless there’s a clear immediate reason about the particular job or school to do so, no. And if you’re going to buy guns, by DOYC learn how to use and store them safely; including being damn sure you know what/who you’re shooting at before firing; and don’t assume they’re going to save you. Nobody’s going to outgun the government in modern times, and if you have to fight off your neighbors you’re already screwed.