Fascism, hope(lessness) and Trump's America

The BBQ Pit
41

I’m fully aware that the next four years are going to suck. What I object to is this doomsday attitude of “All hope is lost, there will never be another election, Trump can do whatever he wants and nobody will stop him because the entire government and everyone in it will submit to his will, every single thing the Republicans have ever wished for is definitely going to happen and there’s nothing anyone can do about it, may as well smother your children in their sleep to spare them the horrors of the concentration camps we’ll all be in a few months from now” that some people around here have been peddling to various degrees.

We need to stand up to Trump and oppose him and the Republicans any way we can if we want to limit the damage he can do. We can’t do that by declaring him invincible and all-powerful and surrendering all hope before he’s even been sworn in, especially not when he’s already gotten pushback FROM WITHIN HIS OWN PARTY over his Cabinet picks and his demands that the Senate roll over for him.

42

My honest to Gods concern is much more that he will turn the U.S. into a slightly worse South Korea. That’s both much more likely and just a little bit worse than some people might imagine (witness the current bout of martial law post-election). It’s not a horrible, dystopian existence. It’s just a somewhat more restrictive, rather more culturally homogenized, somewhat more corrupt, somewhat more economically stratified, somewhat more socially conservative, somewhat more sexist and arguably somewhat less democratic state.

It’s a country with a decent economy and standard of living. A country with fiercely fought elections. A country where you can live very well with a decent income and socially standard race and social relationships. A country with many laws and protections technically on the books. It’s not an awful place by any standard. By a few it might arguably already be a bit better than the United States. But by others, not so much.

43

Somewhere on this board, I forget exactly where, I suggested that I would like to ask Trump supporters “exactly what do you think the US will look like after one year of a Trump presidency? Two years?” And then when their predictions - zero wars in the world, no inflation, great jobs, tariffs paying for everything so taxes are low (in other words, other countries are paying for our great improvements), the return of powerhouse manufacturing, millions of immigrants successfully deported and crime rates therefore lowered - don’t come true, talk to them and say, “see, maybe Trump isn’t the brilliant leader you thought he was.”

But, it was rightfully pointed out to me that the Trumpers will have some excuse - Trump WOULD have succeeded, but the Deep State stopped him.

You’re more reasonable than a Trumper, right? So can we try this experiment and find out what you predict for 12 and 24 months from now, and then check back in? And do you agree that if your predictions do turn out to be wildly overstated, you will acknowledge that you were wrong in the first place, and not make excuses?

I’m willing to do this. If your predictions are correct - and I hope to hell they aren’t - then I will concede the point. But first, we need those specific predictions (and I may agree with some of them, unfortunately, if they don’t seem too hyperbolic). Tell us EXACTLY what you think will DEFINITELY happen. No “maybe possibly death camps.” And if you relegate people to second-class citizenship, explain what you mean by that and how it will be measured - laws and amendments that guarantee equal protection under the law will be repealed, Black and Hispanic employment will decrease, or … ???

I also think we need to leave room for the possibility that Trump is out of office due to incapacity/death fairly soon, and JD Vance takes over. Include that in your scenarios of doom if you will, please. I don’t want to hear 12 or 24 months from now, “well, it would have been death camps if Trump stayed in office, but JD Vance didn’t have Trump’s popularity so couldn’t pull it off.” You yourself note that it ain’t just Trump we’re talking about; it is the current American zeitgeist and all the creepy Project 2025ers who are seizing power.

44

I like Carol’s idea but do NOT do it in this thread. Please.

45

I’m about to take up my previous discussion in this thread to another thread, because I think people don’t really understand where I’m coming from. Maybe there?

Edit: now musing over posting now that I’ve written it. But please feel free to start that new thread regardless.

46

You’re right, the “What were you THINKING?” thread is not where it belongs.

I am happy to start a new thread, but it is up to @DocCathode whether that will happen… If he declines to participate, the idea is kaput. If he agrees, I will start a thread (and link here) if that is okay with him.

47

And, we are no longer in that thread. Miller have me the okay to pull this discussion out to its own thread. Have at it.

(And if you think of a better title, let me know.)

48

A Few Things

First, if I am wrong (and I very much hope I am) I will gladly and publicly admit it. I will not refuse to do so based on some technicality. If I am right, I expect you to hold yourselves to the same standard. I will need a bit to come up with suitably specific predictions though.

Re ‘Wanting This To Happen’

At least one poster has said that the doom I have predicted is ‘what I want to happen’. It certainly is not. I voted for Harris. After doing my research on local races, I ended up voting straight Democrat. That was the future I wanted,

Re Infinity Gauntlet

Trump will not have or need magical powers. Any law can be technicaly still on the books. People have to care about that law. They also must have the power to enforce it. For many years now in Philly, smoking marijuana was technically illegal. However, most cops just did not care if you toked in public. The most severe penalty of any cop the local independent weeklies interviewed was taking the joint, grinding it out under his heel, and reminding the person that marijuana was illegal. There were no magic powers involved. Most people including cops did not care. Most cops did not bother to enforce the law.

49

It won’t be fascism so much as the mass enabling of stupidity and the worst elements of sleazy businesses and profiteers, with cranks and crooks in power like never before.

Undoing the damage will take years.

As for wanting these bad things to happen, that’s obviously what Jill Stein and other far-left characters want, under the impression that they’ll be able to take power amidst the chaos. Historical precedent is not heavily on their side.

50

And many of those voters will only continue to get angrier (as they have for years now) as their lives fail to improve, and a lot of them will not then say “Donald! You lied to us!!” but instead look for someone else to punish because of course some “enemy within” must be the reason he failed.

One does wonder what share of his voters primarily voted for “gimme a magical fix for the economy” and adding "sure, hate comes as a package, eh, so what ", vs. primarily for “crush our enemies and drive them before us” and adding “and if he improves the economy, hey, even better”.

51

“American people” meaning a plurality, not a majority.

52

Put this to the test. Ask a leftist explicitly if capitalism is better than Nazism. I guarantee you will get 0% of responses that straightforwardly answer “yes”.

To be fair, I am pretty sure that most of them would rather live under capitalism than Nazism, if they were being honest about the hypothetical choice. But since fighting capitalism is the whole of their worldview, they cannot admit that there are worse things than capitalism. If pressed, they will attempt to argue that capitalism, Nazism, and liberalism are all equally bad. There’s only leftism and fascism, nothing in between.

Never take a leftist seriously because they’re incapable of any kind of rhetorical earnestness.

53

Clearly you and I have very different ideas about what the word “leftist” means.

54

I’m curious. What percentage of Project 2025 do you consider will need to be successfully implemented for you to characterize American democracy as “ended?” Or do you consider that orthogonal to the question of the survival of American democracy?

55

YOU put it to the test.

Go ahead. Ask me.

56

Everyone does, but I’m talking about people that I interact with online. They’re all exactly as I describe.

But if you doubt me, try the experiment I proposed. Find a leftist and ask them if it would be better to live under capitalism or Nazism. I guarantee they will not straightforwardly say capitalism is better, there will be a lot of equivocation and throat-clearing about how some very bad things have happened on both sides and we need to fight for different choices.

57

I asked myself if capitalism was better than Nazism. I said yes, absolutely it was.

58

It’s not a fair test given that you know what’s being tested. Yet, hilariously, you still proved it out by seeing the question and responding with a non-answer.

59

Oh for fuck’s sake.

Me: Hey, LHOD, which is better, capitalism or Nazism?

Me: What the fuck, dude? Are you fucking kidding me? Capitalism! Why would you ask such a question?

Me: Some idiot on the Internet thinks that leftists can’t answer the question straightforwardly, and when challenged to ask me the question, claimed that the challenge proved his point.

Me: Holy shit, what a fuckin moron.

Me: I know, right?

60

As always, anytime you are in the neighborhood you are welcome to stop in for a meal and some mead.

Keepin mind that I have moved.