There was earlier a thread in Cafe Society that got closed on this topic, but as per SkipMagic’s advice in the Pit thread associated with it, I’m starting a new thread asking the question, hopefully without the animosity that the old thread caused.
One of the things about opera singers is that they have the reputation of being heavy. We know the old saying, “It’s not over until the fat lady sings”, and when the stereotypical opera singer is mentioned, more often than not, you tend to think of a fat soprano Brunhilda in a viking helmet.
You don’t just see this in stereotypical opera singers, but in real ones. Pavarotti, for instance, weighed anywhere from 300-330 pounds near the end of his life. Maria Callas weighed about 200 pounds when she started her career, even though she did lose weight later on. Until soprano Deborah Voight had gastric bypass surgery to lose about 135 pounds (because a producer told her she was too fat for a costume in a role), she was a size 30. The classic diva Luisa Tetrazinni, it was said, could barely fit in dressing rooms.
I could name others, but I don’t think there’s any need. And of course, not all opera singers are fat, but there seems to be a tolerance for weight you don’t see in other genres. Reuben Stoddard aside, you don’t see many heavy pop singers, for instance. And regarding the non-operatic stage and screen, when heavy actors and actresses get parts, they’re usually as comic relief, not as the romantic lead.
So why is there this tolerance of heavy opera singers that you don’t see in other genres? Why do you see heavy opera singers?
Most of the younger ones that I see in productions are not fat. They’re quite athletic. When I read interviews with the up and coming singers they all tend to mention how important their exercise/gym regimes are to maintaining their health and strength, and hence their voices.
A relevant question as opposed to an answer: is there any connection between a person’s size and the power of their voice? For example, if Luciano had dropped 100 pounds (which he easily could have and not been thin) how much would it likely have affected his voice?
First of all, thank you, Captain Amazing, for restarting this thread.
I don’t have an answer, but I was wondering the same thing. I have to believe that my bulk has SOME bearing on the volume or timbre(?) of my voice, I dunno if it’s deeper or fuller or (something?), but it would seem to me there might be some difference.
I do know that my voice became less deep once I stopped smoking. I honestly don’t remember if my voice changed at all with my various weight losses and gains.
In the second to last post of the closed thread, I had asked whether or not rib-cage size had any bearing on the ability of singers to sing well in certain ranges, or to be able to sustain notes longer. Figaro was good enough to answer via PM, and I’m taking the liberty of posting his response here:
Back in the old days, being fat was seen by many as a sign of success and not necessarily considered unattractive or unhealthy. Being a fat opera singer back then was probably not altogether unlike being a massively blinged out rapper…it was kind of expected of them. I’m not anything resembling an opera expert, but in my limited observation, it seems to be a fairly tradition-bound endeavor, and perhaps the fat thing just kind of became tradtional.
I think you answered the question right here. When you’re sitting there hearing this amazing voice coming out, frankly you don’t give a damn if the soprano, in another environment, might be considered obese. You just sit there listening with your mouth open, a small puddle of drool collecting in your lap. Anybody who could sing like that can weigh as much as she likes, IMHO.
Neither Montserrat Caballe, Dame Joan Sutherland, Kathleen Battle, Cecilia Bartoli, nor Maria Callas are/were particularly large, IIRC.
Well, Callas was 5’8" and weighed around 200 pounds. Considering the reccomended weight for a woman of that height is 136-150, she was certainly above that (before she lost a great deal of weight later in her career) I can’t speak to the rest of the women you mentioned.
But, I know you said “When you’re sitting there hearing this amazing voice coming out, frankly you don’t give a damn if the soprano, in another environment, might be considered obese.” Why is that true for opera and not for other genres.
I’m wondering if we shouldn’t start by examining the idea that “opera singers are fat” and determining if it really is more of a pop culture perception of opera or a genuine situation. There’s peripheral issues (“Is opera more accepting of overweight stars?” for example) but I think step one is to cut through the central question.
So as a base sample how about looking at the top 50 most popular opera singers and making a visual judgment based on current pictures of “heavy” or “not heavy”. Let’s avoid “fat” since we’ll get even further into perceptions. We can’t help but taint the test with our perceptions to begin with since we can only get objective information from actual statistics but I think they would be tough to get and unreliable. A few people could vote on such a list and come to a consensus.
There’s our test protocol, but I don’t have a list or set of images hand or time to assemble it tonight. Should this highly scientific experiment continue?
No. I think, though I have no inclination to research the matter, that the association of fat singers with opera predates the modern era. As such, figuring out whether modern opera singers are fat or not misses the point. And even if we did determine that modern opera singers are mostly not fat (or are mostly fat) it wouldn’t deal with I perceive as the real issues, which are “why do we percieve a connection between opera and fat singers?” and “Why is opera more accepting of overweight stars?”
Bearing Figaro’s thoughts in mind along with Eureka’s statement regarding days of yore, does the physical size have to do with projection in houses prior to P.A systems? A grand will be heard further than a spinet.
I wonder if part of it has to do with the physical build that best encourages opera singing. You very rarely see a skinny Minnie who can really “let it rip”, they’re usually broadly built, even when not fat. (Young Pavarotti - not yet fat, but you can see he’s got the frame for it- Mick Jagger would probably be unable to move if he packed on that much weight.) Broad builds tend to carry weight easier (not saying healthier) and perhaps are more predisposed to eventual obesity in general to begin with (I can’t back this up, I’m just hypothesizing) it could be that the best body for being an opera great is, by coincidence, the body more likely to become fat.
Add to this that Pavarotti and many other great opera singers were Meditteranean, and while eaten in moderation the Meditteranean food can be healthy when not eaten in moderation it’s not- all that pasta, sausage, cheese, etc., can add up. Unlike theatrical actors, who may have to climb balconies or do elaborate fight or dance sequences in their line of work, most operatic roles don’t require serious physical activity (to my knowledge) and unlike rock stars they’re not always moving around the stage and on the road in a bus, thus have more time to indulge themselves and fewer incentives not too (i.e. if I can’t climb this balcony I can’t play Romeo anymore, so I better lay off the lasagna). Also, opera greats tend to have far longer careers- not at all uncommon for them to still be at the top of their game in their 50s while pop idols and matinee idols their age are on Golden Oldies tours and playing Branson and nowhere near as visible, and in middle age you just don’t lose weight as easily as when you were 25.
Ruben Studdard, B.B. King, Aretha Franklin and Mahalia Jackson- famous obese non opera singers- all are black and from the south, two demographics not generally associated with healthy cuisine. Elvis, though white, was from the same culture (“fried food is good/love is good/fried food is love”) and in his 20s and 30s he was a lot more physically active and his metabolism wasn’t middle aged yet and the drugs and depression hadn’t slowed him down and then it all just caught up with him. Brando— don’t know what his deal was, but I don’t think he could even sing.
The daughter of a friend of mine is an operatic soprano. She’s in her thirties, about 5’11" and has no excess body fat, but she’s solidly built. To supplement her income she belly dances – I speculate that this may strengthen muscles that support her voice. She aspires to Wagner parts, so not long ago she took up running marathons to increase her lung capacity and endurance.
I can think of gazillions of opera singers who are not fat, and I’d like to see some data supporting the stereotype. Is there an actual statistical correlation that someone can come up with?
And by the way, I have never seen an opera that featured women in horned helmets and breastplates. So much for stereotypes.
In the last thread I named at least twenty very famous opera stars who range(d) from “normal/average weight” down to “skinny minnies.” Including powerhouse voices such as Denyce Graves, Maria Callas during her prime, Kiri Te Kanawa, and Thomas Hampson. (Graves, a mezzo with a voice like a sledgehammer coated in molasses, is one of the hottest singers around, and I mean that both in popularity and in appearance – girlfriend is smokin’.)
So no, there is no physical reason an opera singer has to be large, and the old “most opera singers are fat stentorian guys/chicks wearing horns on their head” is as hoary a stereotype as much else you’d find in cartoons – like greasy little lawyers, mincing effeminate waiters, and shuffling tapdancing black butlers.
Are there more overweight people who could get jobs in opera companies than in musical theater, film or TV? Yep. That’s just because opera singers are a rarer breed, and when you get someone with phenomenal talent you don’t usually quibble about twenty - thirty extra pounds. The talent pool for regular musical theater is much larger (pardon the pun) and there’s also more of a requirement for singer/dancer combinations. Not that overweight folks can’t dance, but obviously dancers tend to be thinner.
In addition, as long as everyone’s throwing out theories, it’s possible that the greater number of big folks in opera relates to the fact that opera fans simply don’t seem to care as much about appearances as their musical theater counterparts. Maybe there’s some correlation between the qualifications necessary to be an opera fan, such as “patient/openminded enough to enjoy an art form that isn’t easily accessible” and “not shallow enough to be thrown by a fat Salome or Delilah or Mimi or Escamillo.” I doubt there are any studies that could prove it, though.
Missed the edit window, sorry for double posting. But here are the examples I gave in the last thread; btw, these are some of the top singers of the past fifty years, not obscure names by any stretch:
These are arguments I always find strange. So if a career isn’t selecting for slimness people will gravitate to fattitude? I just don’t think the “natural” human shape without the constrictions of selection is fat.
Montserrat Caballé isn’t large? What have you been looking at, her first communion pictures? Or those of Montse Daughter?
Helluva voice, but the lady isn’t exactly thin. She has serious weight-related health problems, too. She can sing the roof off a castle, though.
Zsofia, the “current crop” of operatic singers tends to be more weight-conscious, much like society in general. But also, if a company is willing to hire females in a market where everybody else accepts only males (or the other way around), the company that’s willing to overlook gender as part of the hiring process will end up having a lot of females; in the same way, a genre where nobody expects the singers to be able to hop around the stage in 6" heels is more likely to attract people who can’t hop around the stage in 6" heels than another genre where acrobatic ability is more important than being able to sound good without the help of a 10-people production team.
