Father/Daughter Purity Ball - Jesus Goes on Hiatus

Exactly. Just like I’m all in favor of wedding vows, but not wedding vows where the woman vows to obey the man.

If you want to save yourself for marriage, save yourself for marriage. You don’t need a ceremony or a vow to do that. If we’re going to go back to the good old days, why can’t we go back to the ones where this kind of thing was taboo to discuss in public?

Love, companionship, and respect are much more important things to bring to your marriage than the “purity” of never having done it.

This reminds me of Jessica Simpson’s father making all sorts of sleazy remarks during her reality show, about how now she was married she could, “have sex until she was blue in the face.” Eeeeew.

We have daughters. The idea that their father would take them, all gussied up to a fancy dress ball–the sole purpose of which was to celebrate their virginity and their pledge to guard that virginity until the day they take their marriage vows–just seems sad to me. Why would you want to waste an opportunity to celebrate the wonderful, uniquely special bond between your daughters and their Dad–what does virginity, or the lack of it, have to do with that? Will he love them or value them less if they’re no longer virgins? What does emotional or spiritual purity have to do with virginity? Do they lose that quality of purity on their wedding day? I like to think that I’m still pure of heart, despite the lack of hymen. Did something happen on the night I lost my virginity change the relationship I had with my father, or my value as a person to him?

I think those are implications that have not been very well thought out, or sadly, they’re true. At some point, the girls who make pledges become adults, legally, emotionally, physically. At some point, they begin to make their own decisions, and determine what they value and believe, and the reasons why. So, either the pledge makes them beholden to their fathers to the day they are handed over to their husbands, as has already been stated, or they cast off the pledge as something they did during their adolescence, and now both are over. I think that’s the reason why those who pledge only put off their first intercouse 18 months later than those who don’t pledge, according to the reports released by AGI (see my first post in this thread). The majority of pledgers are either no longer virgins when they marry, or they marry several years earlier than non-pledgers. That brings me back to the question of which is more damaging: the value placed on a woman’s sexual status at the time of marriage, or that she’s had more than one sexual partner.

Vlad/Igor

The main difference here is…your daughters decided. And they know that it’s their choice to make. You didn’t take them at ages 4-11 and have them make a pledge in front of hundreds of strangers.

Antinor,
You’re right, I didn’t. And I do have a bit of a problem with the idea of pressure that this implies, especially with the youngest kids. No child of four should even need to think about such things.

But many of you guys seem to have a problem with the whole idea of making this kind of commitment. No matter what age, no matter how it’s done. I know that’s not all of you, but it seems to be a recurring theme here. Personally, I think it’s better for kids to make the decision before it comes to the point. Makes it easier to stick by what you’ve decided.

And for those of you who seem to want to make this as superficial as possible, talking about keeping hymens intact, and vaginas untouched, please try not to do that. Purity comes from choices made, decisions not to engage in what many people see as sin. “Giving myself as a gift” includes sharing a level of intimacy that has never been shared with anyone else. It isn’t just physical status that we’re talking here. It’s keeping oneself from sin, just as you do with other choices you make, like not stealing, or not lying, not hurting other people. I know a lot of you don’t see it as sin, but some of us still do. And just for the record, for the couples I know who see it this way and have waited for marriage, it’s been mutual, not just the girl.

As I’ve said, I do agree with you that if this is happening it should be from both sides, sons as well as daughters, and I wish more dads would make a big deal about this with their sons. I don’t think girls should be responsible for boys’ behavior.

Obviously there are some points of agreement here, and some (fairly major) points of disagreement. I don’t think anybody’s going to change an opinion too much, and I really don’t want to spend my whole limited SDMB time on this thread, so I think this is it for me. I do understand where some of you are coming from, and I’ll be aware of that point of view. I hope that’s mutual.

Is there a Mother/Son analog to this?

I guess one of the reasons why this subject strikes such a nerve with me is that I have a young cousin who followed this ideal of purity–sexual purity, not necessarily the spiritual-type of purity. She & her boyfriend, upon their engagement, vowed that they would remain virgins until their marriage, going even to far as to eschew kissing or hugging so as to avoid any temptation to veer into sin. They took vows of purity that they announced to the whole extended family. (Which kind of creeped me out–some things about your private life are meant to stay private…I don’t need to know!) The entire build-up to their wedding had such strong fairy tale-like undertones; they were SAVING themselves for their WEDDING DAY!!! Ta Dum!! She was the princess, he the prince on his white charger.

But while they were so focused on all that saving up, they didn’t seem to do much of what I see as the work of the engagement period. As newlyweds, they now seem very lost. I can’t help but think that if the emphasis had not been so strongly placed on the physical act of love, that they would have been much better prepared for the hard adjustments that marriage brings.

Neither my husband nor myself were virgins on our wedding night, but the fact that we had been physically intimate with someone else took nothing at all away from what we have together. Instead, I think we were much more aware and grateful to God for the wonderful gift that we have been to each other. I realize that some see that as sin, and I respect their views as a reflection of their values. I just think that it is possible to exaggerate the goal of sexual purity past any real life-value to the daughter. I strongly believe that parents need to talk about their values with their children, and that abstinence is a good thing. I don’t like pushing teenagers into having sex as if it were something that we all MUST do, and RIGHT NOW!! But sometimes sons and daughters don’t wait, and if they don’t, it’s not going to be the end of the world. And I think Purity Balls send a strong message that it is the end of the world.

But it’s HER decision to make, not your’s. You can try and pass on your values, but in the end, she is the one who gets to decide whether or not she agrees with them. And I still think the idea of “giving myself as a gift” is creepy. Because it’s NOT about sharing intimacy-it’s about being the first to take a pop at the cherry. If she wants to wait for marriage, that’s her choice, and if she does, that’s perfectly fine. BUT, she shouldn’t have to tell the entire world that decision, or make her FATHER play some kind of sexual Gandolf (“YOU SHALL NOT PASS!”) to any boy who approach her.

FWIW, the whole sex aspect of marriage skeeves me out to begin with. The white dress, the giving away, the veil…it’s all a little to reminicent of hanging the bloody sheets out for the reception. The idea of my dad (or anyone) beaming proudly through the reception, thinking proudly of my cherry popping all over bed in the honeymoon suite that night, is disturbing as all hell. Love and even godliness seems really really far away to me from ritual deflowering. If you are convicted that it is important, more power to you. But to turn it in to a public ritual seems a little medieval.

That’s one of the reasons I find this whole thing so creepy, honestly. Voyeurism is my anti-kink.

I’m someone who tends to deal with sexuality as very much a spiritual issue and concern, and the sort of public display of involving others in private decisions just feels … tawdry to me. A personal decision for abstinence belongs in sacred space, personal space, not paraded around like a trophy or vanishing into the crowd of rote-spoken words. I find this whole ritual jobbie degrading to the whole concept of choosing abstinence as a sacred thing, even without getting into the question of coercion or lack of ability to make that choice responsibily that are likely the case in children so young.

I have something else to say about it, too…

Pre-teens and teens are, well, horny. It’s natural. and it’s a pretty strong force. Of course the way to channel that isn’t to screw every guy in town. But it’s also not to mold that in to a bizarre father-as-household-god thing, either. Your father is not an appopriate place to channel your sexual energy. It’s not appropriate to warp your daughters to focus their sexual feelings on you. A father-daughter dance is a good idea on it’s own merits, but it becomes creepy when that dance is considered a substitute for the normal and natural courtship between young ladies and young men It becomes creepy when it becomes “instead of feeling sexual feelings for the young men you know, focus those feelings on your father”. At the very least, it’s going to give the poor girl a complex- awakening sexual feelings are confusing enough without throwing dad in to the mix.

Here are some photos, just in case you are still not convinced. Note the wedding cake. Yuck.

ttp://www.abstinence.net/photos/index.php?id=caa258e9f0c59557e9a085066e2a1f40&category=2006+Purity+Ball

Okay, I’ll go find some other thread now :slight_smile:

[sarcasm] Abstinence Clearinghouse: your destination for unpopped cherries. [/s]

:rolleyes:

Your notion that lifelong decisions about personal sexuality can be made at 11 aren’t exactly realistic. An 11 year old will say whatever the parents tell her to say but that doesn’t mean she won’t have a completely different view of life when she’s 20.

For instance, what if she turns out to be gay? She doesn’t WANT to marry a guy. She likes women. What is she supposed to do then? Is she “impure” if she has a monogomous relationship with a female partner?

I think it’s absurd (not to mention just a little bit creepy and controlling) to try force a pre-adolescent child to pledge a committment to a lifelong standard of ritual “purity” which they may no longer believe in (or even be able to adhere to) once they actually grow up.

I get the feeling that the type of Christians who participate in these purity rituals, would likely also be the type to find homosexuality even more repulsive than premarital sex.

I think that’s a very superficial view of intimacy. In my own tawdry past (before I met my wife), I had some sexual encounters that had all the intimacy of ordering a chalupa at Taco Bell. I’ve also had non-sexual experiences which were incredibly intimate and meaningful. There’s nothing magical about doing it. It’s nicer if you’re doing it with someone you care about, but it’s the caring that makes it intimate, not the in-out action. I can’t see how previous sexual experience takes anything away from emotional intimacy with an eventual spouse or love-partner. Equating the physicality of sex with emotional intimacy is kind of shallow IMO.

Can someone provide a cite that the girls are actually reciting a pledge and not just the dads? All of the articles I read on it from the cite only mentions the father’s pledge, not the girls.

It kind of just surprises me that so many people still think this way. I mean, what is so special about “being the first”? I don’t like the idea of turning normal human social transactions into sacred “gifts”.

The social/religious pressure toward virginity, the man’s ownership of women as chattel, is all about economics, fundamentally. It gets dressed up in fine lofty language, but the bottom line is… the bottom line.

The original motivation is to keep property in the family. At some point a family’s ownership of property became tied to the concept of the male lineage. Why that connection was made, I wonder.

“Fatherhood, in the sense of conscious begetting, is unknown to man. It is a mystical estate, an apostolic succession, from only begetter to only begotten. On that mystery and not on the madonna which the cunning Italian intellect flung to the mob of Europe the church is founded and founded irremovably because founded, like the world, macro- and microcosm, upon the void. Upon incertitude, upon unlikelihood. Amor matris, subjective and objective genitive, may be the only true thing in life. Paternity may be a legal fiction.”
—James Joyce, Ulysses

Paternity is “mystical,” “incertitude,” and even “fiction” according to Joyce because (prior to DNA testing) it can’t be proven. Maternity needs no proof.

The problem from the patrilineal property-owning point of view: Your mission is to keep all the property as the possession of your male line. If external DNA (“seed” in the old days) impregnates any of the wombs you control, your property is wasted on not-you. This requires strict rules to keep the wombs under control. The veil. The harem. Religion. From the concept of women as men’s chattel it’s only one more step to “giving away” one’s daughter to her new male owner.

This economic theory attributes the origin of the practice to the beginning of sedentary agriculture, when families first became able to accumulate property to be inherited through the generations. But this doesn’t explain why the control of women in the service of patrilineal inheritance became so strict among nomadic Arabs, the Bedouin. Possibly as a result of Islam, which originated in cities, not the desert, and is mainly geared to an agricultural culture.

The patriarchal powers that be got these rules encoded into religion. While religion is an effective way to gain sway over people’s behavior, the danger is when it overrides rational thought; even a mundane practice like chattel slavery of women becomes sanctified as something holy because it was incorporated into the religious law. People fight, kill, and die for religion, even when if they followed their reason they might well have made better choices. Separating female chattel slavery from its religious trappings, looking at it as an economic phenomenon of the early agricultural era, allows humans to ask whether such rules are really in people’s interest, especially when the economy has changed so much and left agricultural conditions far behind in the past for most of us. It becomes clear there’s no rational purpose in continuing it.